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Essentials chart working thread Anonymous 01/01/2020 (Wed) 23:02:36 No.9633
Based on discussion in >>9382 a thread to improve this for julay/v/. Feel free to complain about the current one and/or suggest shit to add. No games newer than 6 months or preferably a year. We can always make another version.
>>9630 >Working with GIMP is highly recommended if you wanna learn the software faster than reading a manual or some shit. I'm trying now, got as far as drawing a grid for the borders using a filter as its own layer which can later be swapped to the same colour as the image's general background. >It should generally be less work than Paint, however if the items on the chart are sorted then it will be a great amount of work every time the chart is updated because of re-ordering. You mean manual re-ordering right? Compared to using paint I doubt it'll be an issue. I'm confused as to if you'd just manually resize the covers down to fit and keep each cover in its own layer for future rejiggering or what from there I'm willing to do that, compared to literal paint it's already significantly easier. >How about using in-game screenshots instead? Yay or nay? You'd have to include text under it to give the name then which tends to ugly it up a bit. Covers is generally best for a chart covering a wide subject matter like this and then if we need more detail make subcharts for each genre with the screenshots. >>9631 >By the way we don't have to make only one chart... We can split each genre into its own chart, except genres with small game count, we can lump those up. I prefer the single chart approach if it can be done. Too much room will just get genres filled with everything anyway and the smaller charts can get made afterwards. Also helps with series that swap genre.
RTS section is missing Homeworld Cataclysm, Command & Conquer 3 and Kane's Wrath. 3D platformers is missing MediEvil. Flight is missing Ace Combat 5 and 7.
>>9639 >I'm confused as to if you'd just manually resize the covers down to fit and keep each cover in its own layer for future rejiggering or what from there I'm willing to do that, compared to literal paint it's already significantly easier. Right this is retarded. What I do instead is just make the grid overlay thick and turn it off after I'm done. >>9643 RTS section needs a rework in general. I love tib dawn but given the weakness of the campaign most notably Nod's endless commando missions it's not really held up that well. Also debating swapping Zero Hour back with original Generals again. Not sure Submarine Titans is strong enough to go in. >Flight is missing Ace Combat 5 and 7. There are already two Ace Combat games, they'd have to push out an existing game to go in. Usually series are limited to 1-2 games per (sub-)genre without good reason (e.g. big difference in gameplay, great quality compared to the rest of the genre). The reason Diablo and Diablo II are both in there, for example, is the difference in focus with II going towards the lootgrinding end of the spectrum. I'll start on adding and reworking in a bit. Also I'll dump the other notes I have.
Add >Ruiner >Shadow tactics - Blades of the shogun >Kingdom Come Deliverance >Furi
>>9646 Noted. Both you and >>9643 should provide some arguments/description for games not saying I'll ignore you, just good to get debate going for anything that isn't a blindingly obvious omission. Remember in most cases an addition needs to be strong enough to knock an existing game off the chart. I'll reply with more detail in a bit once I have gimp set up and also have had a chance to dump my notes so fags can comment on those.
>>9645 >Usually series are limited to 1-2 games per (sub-)genre I'll go with that. I'd say replace AC4 with 5 or 7. It's the weakest of the holy trilogy in terms of gameplay. >>9649 >provide some arguments/description for games Homeworld Cataclysm is a great expansion for HW1 and adds some much needed mechanics the first one didn't have like combining harvesting, salvaging and repairs into one unit type (worker), getting rid of redundant units like the research ship and putting the research function into the Mothership, ships being able to be upgraded , and a much needed game speed option to deal with the low point of waiting for ships to move around in the original game. MediEvil is a genuinely good action adventure game with some platforming (put it in action adventure). Its story and music are really damn strong, and the gameplay is challenging. It has puzzles and combat in equal measure, and it's criminally underrated for what it is. C&C 3 + Kane's Wrath is a genuinely good entry in the Tiberium series. It runs on an updated version of the Generals' engine and refines the gameplay a lot. Half of the C&C memes come from 3 + KW and it's such a good game in fact that it still has a dedicated community that plays them to this day, holding some sick fucking tournaments that end in close battles more often than not.
>>9645 >Also I'll dump the other notes I have. None of these are final just shit I jotted down into a .txt file after thinking or debating with anons either in a chart thread or in general and is 1-2 years old. Also I do try to account for anon's opinions where I know they differ heavily from mine again I dislike Diablo 2 and all it spawned but anons don't tend to agree with me so it stays in. As I said feedback on the below is needed: POTENTIAL SWAPS >Crysis Swap with Warhead. >Tenchu Is this the strongest in the series? Only one I've played so I can't comment. If not swap with another. >Soul Calibre 2 Replace with 5? >Advance Wars: Days of Ruin Best in the series or replace it with something else? >Persona 3 Swap with another Persona? Already been changed a bunch. >Chinatown Wars Make it explicit if it's PSP or DS version or leave it vague? **Apparently the iOS version combines the features of both but I can't bring myself to put it on the chart, maybe if the android version can be played on PC or something.** Difference in graphics, minigame shit and some content changes. >SM64 Replace with sunshine or not? Leaning not. >Gran Turismo 3 Best one? 2 or 4? >Need for Speed: High Stakes Keep PC or swap with console? Hot Pursuit also a consideration. Undergroundfags need not apply. >Zeus Is it really the best of its city builder series? POTENTIAL CUTS >Shenmue It's proto-cinematics-over-gameplay shit that's only really popular because it was on a dead console. >Armored Core and Armored Core 2 Decide if both are staying in Third Person Shooter. POTENTIAL ADDITIONS >Batman 1990 >Batman Returns Candidates for beat 'em up >Spiderman (2000) Add it back again. >Drakensang Fucking Germans. >Metro 2033 Overrated in my opinion but willing to hear arguments for it to be included. >Parasite Eve <there was no note here >Scratches No idea if this is any good or one autistic argie just likes it a lot. >The Void Does it do anything Pathologic doesn't? >Clive Barker's Undying <no note here either MISC >split FPS into subgenres >make a vehicular combat section, maybe include mech games but definitely include Interstate '76 Again going to stress to you fags that these are only notes, not hard suggestions. A lot of it relates to subgenres I'm weaker in or shit I've not played/not played long enough to make a judgement on.
>>9657 >vehicular combat section Include Vigilante 8 and 2nd Offense in it. They're fucking great.
>>9656 >I'll go with that. I'd say replace AC4 with 5 or 7. It's the weakest of the holy trilogy in terms of gameplay. Will do once it's set up. That'll give anons time to argue for 5 or 7 if you have a preference make your case too. >Homeworld Cataclysm is a great expansion for HW1 and adds some much needed mechanics the first one didn't have like combining harvesting, salvaging and repairs into one unit type (worker), getting rid of redundant units like the research ship and putting the research function into the Mothership, ships being able to be upgraded , and a much needed game speed option to deal with the low point of waiting for ships to move around in the original game. Genuinely forgot the base game didn't have a game speed option. I'll summon the RTS thread to argue about this, Kane's Wrath and the RTS section in general because it needs some love. >MediEvil is a genuinely good action adventure game with some platforming (put it in action adventure). Its story and music are really damn strong, and the gameplay is challenging. It has puzzles and combat in equal measure, and it's criminally underrated for what it is. I've played the first one in the dim and distant long enough ago for nostalgia to blind me but not 2. Which is better? >>9659 I think limiting it to seven total would work as with flight and accounting for some overlap with simulation. So Interstate '76, 1-2 mech games opens room in simulation and I assume a Twisted Metal has to go in there also. Vigilante 8 and 2nd Offense were console spin-offs of Interstate '76 so unless there's a compelling reason not to we should limit it to two of the three games. Probably the original Gold edition specifically and whichever of the Vigilante games is superior. I'm glad at least one other anon has played something from the series at least.
>>9662 >>9659 Also Brigador.
>>9657 The next big note at the bottom was also to start allowing Total Overhauls since they're functionally new games though I can see that being a bit of a minefield. Still there's no real reason for something like Third Age: Total War or The Nameless Mod not to be considered at least. I'd do that after I've got a remade chart up and we've worked through initial suggestions by anons though.
Working on the suggestions so far and getting the thing redone in a proper way.
>>9649 >Shadow tactics - Blades of the shogun Challenging stealth game that requires excellent planning and coordination using characters with unique skills. Level design is fantastic and the ai/enemy paths are sensible enough to pose challenges and threats. Story is good and engaging. >Ruiner Cyberpunk action shooter with fast paced gameplay. Very nice cyberpunk aesthetics, soundtrack is excellent and the story is good. Total game length is on the short side but is very fun and doesnt get repetitive nor boring. >Kingdom Come Deliverance Story-driven rpg with a wonderful setting in 15th century Bohemia. Pros include; no niggers, beautiful setting, nice story, fun side quests and highly customizable outfits. Combat can be a hate/love for different people and can be clunky at times but once you get the hang of it it can be pretty fun. I havent played it it since launch there were some crashes and quest bugs but I think those have been ironed out, horse will get stuck on terrain or will glitch. Worth it imo for setting and the main character who is funny and you can witness him on his journey. Game shouldve been called Henry's Bizarre adventure >Furi Isometric boss only shooter/melee game. Fast paced fluid combat with several bosses that have multiple stages and challenging patterns. Soundtrack is perfect and the story is alright. Not very long like Ruiner was but what is in the game is very well crafted and doesnt get boring.
>>9639 Sorry I'm late... You don't have to put every game cover in its own layer. What I usually do is make one layer a blank grid (tiles are solid color rectangles) and one layer for the real grid (game covers) that is initially empty. Whenever I want to insert a new cover into a tile, I select it from the blank layer with the magic wand (threshold = 0) and paste the cover into the real layer. Important note: a uniform grid makes everything easier and makes the chart look professional and clean. For a grid to be uniform, all covers need to be the exact same size, no exceptions. Either go for a perfect square like in the Dreamcast chart, or go for 2:3 covers (~DVD cover aspect ratio). This may require shooping some covers, but we'll be doing that anyway. One more thing (for now): original exported files should not be saved as BMP, but instead as PNG. Both formats don't lose quality, but PNG does lossless compression to reduce file size. When exporting JPEGs from GIMP, the optimum quality with a reasonable file size is between 85% and 95%. Keep that in mind when exporting the chart for uploading here; you don't want the chart to be too big, and you don't want it to look ugly either. I'll write more tips later and if I have time I'll also make a sample chart template and give you the XCF for it. But for now I'll be signing off.
>>9679 Right thanks for the advice. I'm muddling through with something resembling a grid anyway. >One more thing (for now): original exported files should not be saved as BMP, but instead as PNG. Both formats don't lose quality, but PNG does lossless compression to reduce file size. When exporting JPEGs from GIMP, the optimum quality with a reasonable file size is between 85% and 95%. Keep that in mind when exporting the chart for uploading here; you don't want the chart to be too big, and you don't want it to look ugly either. Yeh I'll probably just keep the XCF for simplicity too.
>>9633 I think Ys should be in the Action RPG section.
>>9680 Of course you should keep the XCF!! That's your source/project file, never delete that.
>>9684 Right. I've got a workflow up now even if it is a bit nigrigged. >>9681 I think you're probably right. JRPG, in the context of this chart at least, is treated as a genre rather than a geographic label.
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>>9662 I'm playing through 2 but consensus is that it's not as memorable as 1. I'd say add both if you can but from what I know, 1 is a classic. >Vigilante 8 and 2nd Offense were console spin-offs of Interstate '76 They're still really good. V8 was the only real rival to Twisted Metal back in the day and it's a staple of the car combat genre with a lot of depth. Cars behave more like vehicles but with enough arcadeyness that it has achieved a good balance. Weapons are varied and it has tons of special moves. Even basic stuff like ramming smaller enemies with a heavy vehicle is fun as hell. Second Offense is more refined than the first, I'd say it's mechanically better than the first by a very slight margin. The music is great, the combos are great, the special weapons are creative and fun to use, it's just great all around. Some fresh gameplay to drive the point home.
>>9695 >They're still really good. V8 was the only real rival to Twisted Metal back in the day and it's a staple of the car combat genre with a lot of depth. Cars behave more like vehicles but with enough arcadeyness that it has achieved a good balance I didn't mean a console spin-off in a bad way. The PSX and the 5th gen in general had some surprisingly good console spin-offs because it was still acknowledged that consoles and PCs excelled at different genres rather than everything having to be a poor compromise multiplat. Often the PC ended up losing out with a poor RTS where consolefags got a fun action game too. >Second Offense is more refined than the first, I'd say it's mechanically better than the first by a very slight margin. The music is great, the combos are great, the special weapons are creative and fun to use, it's just great all around. It'll go on then. The 70s is such an underdone decade in vidya settings.
By the way does anyone know if the Wii version of Okami is actually the definitive one?
>This chart is finally getting a rework It is about goddamn time. Here is as much autism that I can possibly muster right now >>9657 Keep Mario 64. While I can understand putting in Sunshine, saying it should replace 64 is pointless. Keep Persona 3 since it is considered to be the strongest entry from what I know about it. Only reason to consider 4 or 5 is that they have a much more impact legacy regardless of quality, and that opens up a massive can of worms of putting in games just because they are "important" and not for perceived quality. Don't put Metro 2033 in. While I was a fan of the game, there is no reason why I would ever consider it to be one of the best. Hell I'd suggest putting in CoP before ever putting it in first. Tenchu 2 or Wrath of Heaven might be considerations for replacing Tenchu 1, but otherwise leave it in for now. I'd say add in one of the GBA advance wars games if more stuff gets added to turn based tactics, but keep in at least one advance wars game. Now for my suggestions >Either move Half-Life 2 back to FPS, or remove it altogether. Putting it in action-adventure is a hald ass answer for wanting to acknowledge it and source mods as a whole, but it would only make sense if it is put in as FPS despite it being a lackluster game. Only FPS I would consider putting into Action-Adventure is Metroid Prime >Move MGS3 back into Stealth as well. Only because it has very little to do with being a TPS. Move Just Cause 2 into its place. >Move Jet Set Radio to 3D Platformer >Expand Fighting games and Visual Novel sections. I'm only advocating the latter despite it being low priority since only one jap VN is in there, and the other two are in as a result of being heavily based on imageboard culture. YU-NO, and some other VN would be the best options. >Split the Simulation category between combat sims and regular sims. Move Microsoft flight sim to it regardless if it splits or not. >Consider replacing Super C or Contra II with Hard Corps >Leave FPS-RPG as is. It is the only section that is 100% perfect >Probably replace Imperishable Night with any other touhou game. Also put in Soku for fighting since it is the only game that gets tournaments around here. If there is anything else that I wanted to mention, it is purely because I forgot it, and might include in another autism post later.
>>9699 Alright. By the way, don't forget to add Split/Second Velocity. It's the next best arcade racer after Burnout.
>>9706 As a note it looks like the first, third and fourth columns of games will expand by one widthwise so there'll be a bit more room in some genres. >Keep Mario 64. While I can understand putting in Sunshine, saying it should replace 64 is pointless. Noted. I want to keep the number of Mario and Sonic games as is in their respective categories because it forces decisions like this on what's the real peak of the franchise/series. >Keep Persona 3 since it is considered to be the strongest entry from what I know about it. Only reason to consider 4 or 5 is that they have a much more impact legacy regardless of quality, and that opens up a massive can of worms of putting in games just because they are "important" and not for perceived quality. Yeh not going down the 'impact' road. That way lies shit and pure consensus/popularity. >Don't put Metro 2033 in. While I was a fan of the game, there is no reason why I would ever consider it to be one of the best. Noted. I think if it had had stronger mutant combat sections and endgame it could get there. >Tenchu 2 or Wrath of Heaven might be considerations for replacing Tenchu 1, but otherwise leave it in for now. Got it. >I'd say add in one of the GBA advance wars games if more stuff gets added to turn based tactics, but keep in at least one advance wars game. I'm definitely not going to cut the series out entirely, so don't worry on that. >Either move Half-Life 2 back to FPS, or remove it altogether. Putting it in action-adventure is a hald ass answer for wanting to acknowledge it and source mods as a whole, but it would only make sense if it is put in as FPS despite it being a lackluster game. Only FPS I would consider putting into Action-Adventure is Metroid Prime HL2 has always been a skubfight. I'm not a huge fan honestly I never liked the first one much either and removing that would probably cause a larger argument and sticking it an action-adventure was the only reasonable place. It'll probably have to stay in somewhere. >Move MGS3 back into Stealth as well. Only because it has very little to do with being a TPS. MGS3 is not stealth. I'd put it in action adventure maybe but both action-adventure and third person shooter are sort of dump categories so for a game like MGS it's much of a muchness. >Move Just Cause 2 into its place. The debate there was how much JC2 is a good game for its sandbox nature rather than its shooting but will consider it depending which category needs room and which needs filled. >Move Jet Set Radio to 3D Platformer But then I need to think of a 7th actually good music/rhythm game. >Expand Fighting games Fighting games will get a bit of an expansion but really it benefited from being cut down because it forces a drop in duplication in a genre where there's a lot of overlap. >and Visual Novel sections. I'm only advocating the latter despite it being low priority since only one jap VN is in there, and the other two are in as a result of being heavily based on imageboard culture. YU-NO, and some other VN would be the best options. VN, Roguelike actual Roguelikes only no gay indie rougelite shit and maybe Party Games will all get expanded. 1/2
>Split the Simulation category between combat sims and regular sims. Move Microsoft flight sim to it regardless if it splits or not. Already going to split some stuff into vehicular combat which should suffice for this. I might also do combat sim depending if it doesn't result in two half-empty categories that get stuffed with filler. >Consider replacing Super C or Contra II with Hard Corps No idea what Hard Cops is but sure, if you can make the argument for it. We'll end up with 1-2 more slots in Run and Gun anyway. >Leave FPS-RPG as is. It is the only section that is 100% perfect Agreed. If there was a single truly great mod built on top of CoC already I'd consider adding it but nothing has got there yet. >Probably replace Imperishable Night with any other touhou game. I know nothing of touhou and that was the only one suggested. If fags can come to an agreement on which one is best with some reasoning as to why I'll happily swap it. >Also put in Soku for fighting since it is the only game that gets tournaments around here. Does it get played because it's actually good though or just because of cultural reasons? Most of this makes sense and I'll implement it as I go. I now understand layers and grouping-of-layers so all is well. 2/2
I will also accept total conversion mods defined as being an almost entirely new game in the same engine, not just a fanpatch or content addition and even flash games if there are any that rise to the level of an essential. There is actually a single flash game in the chart already. 10 points to whoever spots it. Pretty much if it's classifiable as a game it can go in. >>9709 There'll be room for two more racing games so it can fit give an explanation of why though, as much so another anon can come argue with you if they disagree as for just putting it in. Interestingly nobody has ever complained about the lack of Mario Kart over CTR. I mean CTR is the better game but I'd have expected more complaints certainly back on /v/ when it first happened. Fucking flood detection.
Also if Crysis gets replaced by Warhead, replace Half Life with Opposing Force
>>9713 Split/Second succeeds by having the same qualities as Burnout, except without traffic or a burn meter. Drifting feels exceptional and is very rewarding, as is cornering and dodging Power Plays. Sound design is great, as is the music. Graphics hold up well, and the level design is varied. It's a joy to play.
>>9714 >replace Half Life with Opposing Force Personal bias against Half Life aside that's actually a pretty good idea. Unlike base HL Opfor doesn't overstay its welcome and it has some interesting late-game guns bland gunplay being one of HL1's big flaws. The friendly AI segments felt a bit tacked on though. >>9715 Sounds neat.
- Add Axiom Verge to Metroidvania. It's much better than Hollow Knight. - Add Puzzle Quest: Challenge of the Warlords to Puzzle. It's one of the best games I've ever played and it's a true puzzle game - much more than the other ones in the list. - Sid Meier's Pirates should also be somewhere - maybe in Simulation or Sandbox. Again one of the best games I've played and a very rare pirate game. I have no idea what to remove though.
Also fuck me, replace WWE 2k14 with WWF No Mercy, or any other suggestions that come up.
Are you the guy who made the Vita game list?
>>9721 >- Add Axiom Verge to Metroidvania. It's much better than Hollow Knight. >- Add Puzzle Quest: Challenge of the Warlords to Puzzle. It's one of the best games I've ever played and it's a true puzzle game - much more than the other ones in the list. Not two things I know a lot about but will look into. If other anons know anything it'd also help to weigh in. >Again one of the best games I've played and a very rare pirate game. You should try Sea Dogs which may or may not be worth considering adding too. >I have no idea what to remove though. A little bit of room will have opened up when I get the first draft of this out. Wasted 30 minutes trying to pick a version of Okami before just going for the PS2 one as a placeholder.
>>9723 No. I only maintained this one and attempted to fix the RTS chart before giving up without making more than a draft I never posted. >>9722 Honestly I just picked a random wrastling game in the hope someone would get mad enough to suggest replacing it then forgot entirely it about it being there.
Okay new batch of autism. >Castlevania 1 could probably be replaced by Rondo of Blood, or Super. All depends on which most anons think >KOTOR 1 could be easily replaced since it is commonly accepted that KOTOR 2 is superior nowadays. >Dark Forces could be replaced by Jedi Knight, but I'd only vouch for keeping Dark Forces since it is strictly an FPS. Jedi Academy and Jedi Outcast come down to personal opinion >Possibly try to think of better names for Metroidvania, and Character Action. >Maybe reduce the soulslikes in Action RPG and increase the Diablolikes. Granted this suggestion is out of minor personal taste. >KoF XIII could be replaced by KoF 98, or KoF 2002. Hell more SNK/Non-Capcom fighters in general would work for expanding Fighting. >All of the strategy genres are going to need reworks out of perceived filler. Total war will probably have to stay in Grand Strategy since I have no idea what other genre they would go in. Finally >How the fuck is Adventure one of the genres that barely changes across all of these charts?
>>9726 >Castlevania 1 could probably be replaced by Rondo of Blood, or Super. All depends on which most anons think Not something I'd want to make a call on without more feedback. >KOTOR 1 could be easily replaced since it is commonly accepted that KOTOR 2 is superior nowadays. Probably true. If you've played one Bioware game you've played them all anyway. >Dark Forces could be replaced by Jedi Knight, but I'd only vouch for keeping Dark Forces since it is strictly an FPS. Jedi Academy and Jedi Outcast come down to personal opinion Dark Forces II/Jedi Knight is caught between being an FPS and a lightsaber game and ends up doing neither as well as either the game before it or after it. Academy is a better MP game for sure but Outcast is better for SP and generally I think that's a better thing to recommend. >Possibly try to think of better names for Metroidvania, and Character Action. Depends if anons would recognise them. >Maybe reduce the soulslikes in Action RPG and increase the Diablolikes. Granted this suggestion is out of minor personal taste. Diablolikes or Diablo2likes? >KoF XIII could be replaced by KoF 98, or KoF 2002. Hell more SNK/Non-Capcom fighters in general would work for expanding Fighting. As long as its kept to one per series for fighting vidya. >All of the strategy genres are going to need reworks out of perceived filler. Total war will probably have to stay in Grand Strategy since I have no idea what other genre they would go in. Yeh RTS needs work. Once some eurofags wake up we should get on with that. >How the fuck is Adventure one of the genres that barely changes across all of these charts? It was the single hardest genre to find anything to cut from actually. I even put one or two back in with later revisions. On-Rail Shooter has also seen almost no changes, just a Time Crisis out for Killer7.
Suggestion to the fps category, Overload. Really well made 6DoF shooter.
Also, I would kick out Secret of Mana from JRPG section. I've played it thoroughly and I don't think it's even a good game at all. All you do is go around hitting stuff but even that is not done particularly well. It's very linear - there's pretty much no decisions to be made. Money is always plentiful and you always have the best equipment possible. You have a bunch of weapons that you can level up but the higher levels aren't always better than the lower ones (for example, lower level has inflicting sleep versus higher level damage boost against lizards - which is much worse). Lots of magic schools but you don't really get much of a choice in which one to use since they're revealed in order. So the later ones (the Dryad or Luna) are useless since you'd have to grind for a year to get them leveled up enough to rival the ones you've already got (Salamando or Gnome for example). Even though the later ones have cool spells, you don't get to enjoy them. I'd rather have Seiken Densetsu 3 in there, which is much better. Or even a pokemon game (PMD is great and better than the mainline ones, or just include HG/SS)
a few unorganized suggestions Punisher or DnD mystara or both Alien Soldier Wonder Boy III The Dragons Trap Golden Axe Warrior A mid-00's PGA tour whichever is best PGA Tour III Sheep Raider Valkyria Chronicles 4 Micro Machines 3 or 4 Samurai Shodown V Special or II Hyperchase Star Wars (Atari - 1983) a Light-Gun section including Shooting Gallery, Rescue Mission, and Point Blank 2 among others SEGA CD versions of NBA Jam and Earthworm Jim At least one cute-'em-up Phantasy Star An indication for if a game is multiplayer with vs, co op, online, and couch distinctions would be nice Bishi-Bashi Special Pop'n Tanks
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As promised here are some more tips, and a sample XCF file at the end. >grids There's a built-in grid tool in GIMP (Image --> Configure Grid) but it's completely useless to us in this project, we're gonna go another way. First make a new image, let's say 130x195, that's gonna be our "model" game cover. Color it black, right-click the layer and select Add alpha channel if it's not already checked, then go to Image --> Canvas Size and add a number (let's say 10) to both the width and the height, then at the bottom choose Resize layers: All layers and Fill with: Transparency, then click the Resize button. You now have (1) tile sized 140x205. Go to Filters --> Map --> Tile, uncheck the chain icon binding the width to the height, then multiply each of the width and height by a whole number that denotes the column and row count, respectively. For example I want 10 columns and 5 rows, so 140*10 in the width and 195*5 in the height. A new image will be created containing a blank grid, go to Image --> Crop to Content, and now you have the basis of your chart. Note that the grid doesn't have any margins, you can add those using the Canvas Size method I mentioned earlier, but make sure after you input the new size to click the Center button under the Offset section. >scaling/resizing Whenever you wanna scale a cover, open it as a new image first, and after cropping/cleaning up the image go to Image --> Scale Image and input the exact size you want the image to be. Also choose an interpolation, I personally prefer NoHalo but any of the others are good (except None). What you should NOT do, is use the Scale Tool; it only scales single layers and creates "faded" edges in the result. See pic related. >text Will the text for the genres break the grid? Absolutely not. Any text you insert will be automatically assigned its own special type of layer that allows you to edit/format said text anytime. Do NOT paint on or crop text layers as that will render them into regular layers and you will no longer be able to edit the text... Text should be positioned at the center of a group of tiles of your choosing. To center text (or any layer really) into a certain area, select it first, then choose the Alignment tool and click on the layer you want to center (make sure none of the layers on top of it are visible). Then in the tool properties choose Relative to: Selection then click the two center buttons. You can also align multiple objects/layers at the same time but this is a bit tricky and I'm not getting into it here. >sample XCF Here: https://u.teknik.io/ORaZp.xcf (couldn't upload XCFs here sorry) You might want to View --> Sow Layer Boundary to get an idea where each layer ends, it'll put things in perspective at least in the beginning of your GIMP journey.
I forgot to suggest that we should limit each franchise to one title only, or at least one title per genre. For example, there should only be one Resident Evil game in the horror section I vote for REmake instead of two or more, this will give way for more franchises to be included. Also, I suggest de-prioritizing very popular games. We don't really need a game like Mario 64 on our chart when it's literally on every chart in existence and everyone has played it already. Priority should be given to lesser known gems that deserve a chance at the spotlight, especially if they are niche games that are only popular here.
Alright got some new suggestions. >Make Persona 3 either one of the classic Personas. The only reason why I said to go with 3 originally is because I thought the presence of SJ and Nocturne made it ""okay"" to have post-3 persona on it. >Move Raidou 2 to Action RPG >Add Majin Tensei 2 or Devil Survivor to turn based tactics or turn based strategy. Add to whichever one you feel they should go in. >To further define stuff, make Hard Corps replace Super C
>>9772 >I forgot to suggest that we should limit each franchise to one title only I agree. Recommed only the strongest title in the franchise, and if someone likes that, he will check out the others anyway. Add Dungeon Crawler category with: Etrian Odyssey III, Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, Mary Skelter: Nightmares, and Strangers of Sword City Revisited as recommendations.
>>9778 I've also played: The Dark Spire, Demon Gaze, Class of Heroes 1 and 2 - and I don't think those are worth it.
I'm back. Hang on while I read.
>>9732 Either that or original Descent seems a good idea. >>9740 Seems like flaws you can lay at the door of a lot of JRPGs but sure. >Pokemon If PMD is actually great then a good idea. Mainline pokemon games are usually not actually that good which is why none are there already. >>9757 All noted. >>9771 Will try this. I went with just trying to draw a grid with the filter tool and it came out odd.
>>9772 That's the current rule with exceptions where: 1. a franchise has significant gameplay differences between entries (limit is then one for each gameplay style). e.g. C&C though some work is going to be done with RTS 2. a franchise swaps genre with later entries (one per genre or sub-genre) e.g. GTA VC/SA and Chinatown Wars, Dark Forces vs Jedi Outcast 3. two or exceptionally three games in a series are impossible to decide between because of either identical quality or some other factor. e.g. Thief 1's spooky/supernatural focus vs Thief 2's thievery focus In general I've been trying to cut down on duplication. >Also, I suggest de-prioritizing very popular games. We don't really need a game like Mario 64 on our chart when it's literally on every chart in existence and everyone has played it already. Priority should be given to lesser known gems that deserve a chance at the spotlight, especially if they are niche games that are only popular here. The chart is for the best of the best not unknown games. If it's at the top of its genre it goes in regardless of popularity, lack of popularity, platform etc. Hidden gems is a subject for another chart which I'll happily make after this one. >>9774 >Make Persona 3 either one of the classic Personas. The only reason why I said to go with 3 originally is because I thought the presence of SJ and Nocturne made it ""okay"" to have post-3 persona on it. If you can come up with logic for picking one of the earlier ones sure. >Move Raidou 2 to Action RPG Will do. JRPG needs cut down to actual JRPGs not just nip-made RPGs. >Add Majin Tensei 2 or Devil Survivor to turn based tactics or turn based strategy. Add to whichever one you feel they should go in. Will look at this when I get there. >To further define stuff, make Hard Corps replace Super C Someone else suggested that too and I'll probably do that. >>9778 >Add Dungeon Crawler category with: Etrian Odyssey III, Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, Mary Skelter: Nightmares, and Strangers of Sword City Revisited as recommendations. We'll need a hard definition for Dungeon Crawler vs older CRPG/WRPG first.
>RPG Divinity original sin 1/2 >Sandbox Rimworld Oxygen not included Also factorio is a sandbox, not a city builder/management. >simulation Kerbal space program >puzzle "Forced" is a nice coop puzzle, I recommend. >Rougelike Sil UnRealWorld
Alright made a new list of suggestions. Probably the last time I will do it so more voices can get in here. >FPS: Possibly Remove: Necrovision, Timeshift, Call of Juarez, Bioshock 2 Unironically add Joint Ops >Open World/Sandbox RPG: Add: Daggerfall because of another Thief 1 vs Thief 2 situation. Remove one of the Gothics. Probably add in Kenshi, but it could also be added to Turn Based Tactics. Possibly change MH3 to if people advocate updating it >Action RPG: Add Grim Dawn, remove either Dark Souls or Demon Souls even if it causes an autism fest. Alpha Protocol, Risen, and Kingdom Hearts could possibly be removed if there are other games people want added to it. >JRPG: Replace Superstar Saga with a game. Could put in Xenosaga, any FF, or what have you to it. >Fighting Games: Add Garou, Soku, maybe Melty Blood Actress Again Current Code, and Samurai Showdown 5 Special. One more game could probably be added if expanding the category is okay with everyone else. Also Swap KoFXIII with KoF98 since that is treated like the definitive game of the franchise. If a KoFfag would like to argue otherwise, say it now. >3rd Person Shooter: Add in EDF 4.1. >Racing: If anyone complains about the lack of Kart racers, or Mayro Kart in general, add Double Dash. There could probably be arguments for 8 or Wii, but honestly debating the best Mario Kart game is an argument I've never cared for. >Puzzle: Bring Tetris back. >Party 100% Orange Juice can be definitively added. >Visual Novel Minor suggestsions for if it expands. Keep it limited to two of them. Steins;Gate, YU-NO, Saya no Uta, or Muv Luv Alternative.
>>9803 >Visual novel Its really a genre with many sub-genres and everyone has a different taste. 3 present is enough. >>Action RPG: >Add Grim Dawn Yes, and also maybe delete one of diablo's because redundant.
Still remaking the chart. It's slow going because I'm hunting down proper boxart off mobygames rather than wikipedia for better quality but it's progressing. Burger Ico has a terrible cover.
There doesn't need to be 3 contras. Is there any point in suggesting really old games that people will have a hard time emulating if emulation is even possible? I'd suppose not, since the list doesn't mention anyone being able to play the games, but then again why include something that no one will play because no one can.
>>9802 >Divinity original sin 1/2 I could swear there was a Divinity in there already. Must have forgotten about it or cut it. >Rimworld I don't think it holds up to classic sandbox games. Like many other recent indie sandbox/tycoon games there's no real difficulty unless you go out of the way to challenge yourself. Prison Architect is the worst for this where no only is but also many objects in rooms are entirely aesthetic and fags can pass through each other so 1-wide corridors are optimal. >Oxygen not included I tried the (((Early Access))) version and it had the same problems as the above but I'll grant that was very early on and it's probably improved with a full release. >Also factorio is a sandbox, not a city builder/management. It has a defined goal and win condition which is what pushed it. It's also Early Access still which really means it shouldn't be here at all but I left it in as a legacy thing. >Kerbal space program A good idea if there's space. >"Forced" is a nice coop puzzle, I recommend. Neat idea. I don't think I've ever really played a true coop puzzle game, ignoring things like Portal 2's coop mode. >Sil Been meaning to check it out but haven't played it yet. Looks great though and unlike one of the roguelikes that mistakes complexity for depth. >UnRealWorld Yes. It was just under the cut when the genre was limited to 4 games. >>9806 Oh right this is helpful: for any additions posting good quality box art. Mobygames is a good source and generally it's best to favour a burger, bong or nip cover where they vary by region.
>>9809 Any game is fine to suggest as long as you can lay out an argument for why that someone could respond to. Usually virtual machines can take over where emulation proves impossible too. How old are we talking? >>9808 Thread theme. >>9803 >Possibly Remove: Necrovision, Timeshift, Call of Juarez, Bioshock 2 Yeh they're the weaker entries in the genre. Gunslinger needed more length. >Unironically add Joint Ops Maybe: I'd like to add the best Novalogic tactical fps but the singleplayer ones are better in my opinion. Also thinking of swapping Battlefield 2 for 1942 or possibly some flavour of overhaul mod for one of the two games. >Add: Daggerfall because of another Thief 1 vs Thief 2 situation. I knew I'd forgotten something in the notes. Daggerfall is better than Morrowind hands down. Might put it in Dungeon Crawler if that's a category we endup with since that's really what it excels at. >Remove one of the Gothics. If fags can pick between them this time sure. >Probably add in Kenshi, but it could also be added to Turn Based Tactics Did it finally get finished? Seems as if it's had a release at least. >Possibly change MH3 to if people advocate updating it Up to fags to comment on what they want. >Replace Superstar Saga with a game. Could put in Xenosaga, any FF, or what have you to it. As long as it's not FF7 >Add Garou, Soku, maybe Melty Blood Actress Again Current Code, and Samurai Showdown 5 Special. One more game could probably be added if expanding the category is okay with everyone else. Also Swap KoFXIII with KoF98 since that is treated like the definitive game of the franchise. If a KoFfag would like to argue otherwise, say it now. There'll be some room for additions. Might be a good idea to post in that fighting game thread asking fags to come give opinions. >Add in EDF 4.1. I like EDF but like Timeshift, Sleeping Dogs some other games it's really just a very, very well executed average game. That'd mean it was first to get cut if something else needs to go in. > If anyone complains about the lack of Kart racers, or Mayro Kart in general, add Double Dash. There could probably be arguments for 8 or Wii, but honestly debating the best Mario Kart game is an argument I've never cared for. The Mario Kart is CTR. Also that one Sonic game could maybe go back on. >Bring Tetris back. Not really a puzzle game but sure. >100% Orange Juice can be definitively added. Mostly the category exists to upset smashfags but will look at.
>>9803 >>9805 >visual novels There was a long debate about this: mostly it exists to acknowledge the VNs that really matter in terms of anon 'culture' which is a bit of a cop-out but it kept everyone happy. Will add to it if there's a very compelling reason. >Add Grim Dawn >Yes, and also maybe delete one of diablo's because redundant. I'll replace Diablo II with a better Diablo II clone if one exists but Diablo (1) =/= Diablo II. More than a Thief 1 vs Thief 2 situation Diablo and II play very differently with the latter being more about the addictive lootgrinding loop and multiplayer vs the first game's 'what if we made an actiony roguelike'. >>9657 Could do with more feedback on these.
>>9810 >boxart Here's some for a post from earlier will be multiple posts >>9811 >how old Discrete logic and stuff
Also there's no MMO section and I doubt it's possible to name more than maybe two MMOs actually worth even considering: mostly only Guild Wars 1, pre-NGE Star Wars Galaxies and that's all perhaps some MUDs?. Seems like it's picking the best of an almost universally worthless genre though.
I suppose you'd like arguments to support these suggestions so I'll give some in a little bit
>>9816 MMOs being in would be controversial as is so don't do it. Only suggestion I could give is PSO1, and that isn't even a standard MMO and more of a standard action RPG with multiplayer.
>>9813 >Discrete logic and stuff The question to ask is whether or not they're fairly worth the title of 'best of the best' rather than being great for their time. If so then go for it. Also there's probably an obscure GNU/Linux method for autisming them to work on a modern system worst case you could just simulate the physical hardware needed to run them. >Here's some for a post from earlier will be multiple posts Thanks. It makes life a lot easier. >>9814 I never noticed anyone say Micro Machines V3 but good taste. Only one I played though so while I enjoyed it I can't speak to if it's the best in that series. >>9817 Yeh please do. Like I said it's as much to let other anons argue with you as it is simply persuading me to stick them in. A lot of 'classic' games that are missing from this chart are missing because when challenged fags couldn't defend them with more than accusations that anyone who disliked them were reddit/underage/cuckchan etc. >>9818 Same thing with GW1 where outside of PvP it's more like a coop RPG than an MMO. Probably too likely to cause arguments though. On the subject of very well executed averageness I don't think Defy Gravity can make the cut but it's good and I do remember anons talking about it back when it was newer. Looks like the fag behind it has gone off to make (((Early Access))) rougelite crap which is depressing.
>>9810 >there's no real difficulty unless you go out of the way to challenge yourself Like in any other sandbox. And difficulty was never a point of sandbox games. If you can build fully functioning auschwitz in it, it count as sandbox. Complexity would be a better criteria and they are plenty complex with temperature, gasses and all other shit in them. Powder toy can also qualify in sandbox or simulation. >>9816 >mmo advice Dont play them.
>>9812 I agree with removing shenmue Adding those Batman games is nothing more than pandering to people that only played console beat em ups. They're fine but they're not the best. I'll argue this in a later post. A lot of people grew up loving Wrath of Heaven but I've only played Stealth Assassin so I can't comment past that. Could just be nostalgia for people.
>>9821 last line is about tenchu
>>9821 >I agree with removing shenmue Notably since the remastered versions showed up and fags were able to play them without messing with emulation etc I've noticed a lot less defence/worshipping of the games which is why I brought it up again. Seems like it was a classic case where most people didn't actually play it. >Adding those Batman games is nothing more than pandering to people that only played console beat em ups. They're fine but they're not the best. I'll argue this in a later post. I'm no expert of beat em ups so please drop an autismpost on the genre in general. >A lot of people grew up loving Wrath of Heaven but I've only played Stealth Assassin so I can't comment past that. Could just be nostalgia for people. Yeh that's my problem with picking a Tenchu.
>>9820 >Like in any other sandbox. And difficulty was never a point of sandbox games. If you can build fully functioning auschwitz in it, it count as sandbox. Good sandboxes have actual difficulty and a completely trivial one is just boring. Compare Tropico 4 to 1 or even 3 where 4 is so easily played you have to go out of your way to lose. A sandbox should still have some sort of gameplay restrictions when you stick within gameplay rules, assuming you're not giving yourself unlimited cash or something. >Complexity would be a better criteria and they are plenty complex with temperature, gasses and all other shit in them. I'd go with depth over complexity. Complexity means adding more shit to manage regardless of how it fits together or what it brings to the game. Depth is actually improving the game and how much thought/skill you need to use to succeed. Not saying Rimworld or Oxygen Not Included again haven't touched it since it got further on in development are complex rather than deep though, just making the distinction. Counter Strike, ASSFAGGOTS and so on are complex rather than deep: muscle memory and pure memorisation mean more than anything else. Just like the 100m sprint it's technically impressive to watch someone excel at such a simplistic task but it's ultimately pretty meaningless. My complaint about most of the current crop of indie sandbox titles is they just slap a bunch of mechanics in without thinking how they're going to work together or cause you to actually think of making trade-offs and then, because they're usually Early Access, patch more and more numbermanaging or near-duplicated functionality in to keep early adopters happy when they really should be cutting and refining things instead. So instead of building x room/building for a reason you're only pushed to do it because you think it looks cool or fits your theme. To match this up to your example in the modern indie style of sandbox game if you wanted to make Auschwitz you'd only put guard towers everywhere because you felt like it not because they were actually at all necessary because guard towers were only added in patch 1.127313 and don't really interact with any game system other than the one specific type of escapee that same patch added. Meanwhile the base patrolling guard type that's been in since version 0.001 fills every real guard function and can fit in a tiny 1x1 room because every room object is just decoration. All these little tacked-on systems exist in their own closed loop instead of adding into the game and become a little bit of added complexity, not depth, because you must have them to deal with a specific type of problem created only to justify having them instead of making the trade-off on how you'd deal with them from the entire toolbox you're given. Again though I don't know how much of this applies to Oxygen Not Included looking up what's changed since I played it it looks to have gotten much better over Rimworld and even Rimworld suffers from it much less than shit like Prison Architect. Theme Hospital is guilty of this to a lesser extent as well which is part of the reason it's weaker than Dungeon Keeper.
>>9757 a few organized arguments >Punisher 2 player beat em up with plenty of moves and weapons. Not overly long this is easily one of Capcoms strongest in the genre with great control and varied levels. Half the time you pull out a machine gun and start punishing everyone around you which is novel for the genre. Can also play as white Nick Fury >DnD mystara On top of the solid controls the sheer amount of shit any of the 4 players can do in this beat em up. My argument for this is play it on fightcade right now and tell me what game is better in the genre. >X-Men 6 player beat em up. By nature of simply being 6 player this game shoots to the top of best in the genre. Every character has unique moves, there's plenty of levels, the bosses are good, and the controls are as good as they get in the genre >Argument against the two suggested Batman games The games are fine and I'm not bothered by them but I don't see how you could consider adding them to that category when there's 3 games that I've just listed that are in every way better than half of what is already in the category. This category should be 95% arcade games, the only console beat em up that was actually worth a shit was SoR. Side note - I don't know if I'd keep the Warriors in that category but I don't know where else it would go so maybe ignore this side note. >Alien Soldier One of the greatest "run n gun" games ever made, also one of the more difficult ones. This game sees a mastery of game design and development from the creators met with a requirement of gameplay mastery from the player. A seemingly endless boss rush with magnificent sprites, rewards for effective and efficient gameplay, and a ripping soundtrack, this game can only be refused by those who can't get past the first level. No wonder it inspired cuphead. >Wonder Boy III The Dragons Trap Great """metroidvania""" from the time when that "genre" was first being defined. With multiple transformations that you must endure you find your movement and ability to explore constantly improving and increasing. With beautiful buttery controls, a wonderful map to explore, puzzles, equipment upgrades, hidden areas, flight, underwater travel, great music and great visual design it is hard to wonder :^) how this ended up being rebuilt entirely from original code by some random fans that ended up getting an official release nearly thirty years after its initial release. >Golden Axe Warrior Better than LoZ 1 I'll tell you that you know what else its really between this and Golvellius for greatest 8-bit Zelda clone. Both being much better than the game they're copying >A mid-00's PGA tour whichever is best These games are really relaxing and pretty solid for what they are. I put this here for variety but I'll stand by it for a little bit >PGA Tour III 16-bit home console golf at its finest. >Sheep Raider A stellar late PSX stealth game. Not only is the sneaking sneaky but the items you get make you feel like you're playing a game in a Looney Toons cartoon. You do shit like attach a rubber band to two trees so you can catapult sheep across a ravine. The controls are really good but of course the camera isn't the best. Being a late system title it does a good job of displaying the hardware at its finest. A fair amount of levels with something hidden to find in each, this game does a great job of making you solve puzzles while hiding your ass. >Valkyria Chronicles 4 Just a big fan. Great gameplay with an ancap fantasy plot. What if the child consents to becoming a recreational nuclear weapon plot is not a reason that games are good or not, I know >Micro Machines These games fucking rule and are the best tiny racers there are. Be that as it is, does it not seem prudent that at least one of the titles be included in the racing section?
>Samurai Shodown V Special or II It's fucking samsho what's there to argue honestly I think the only argument should be which samsho it should be but I'll go ahead and say I think most would choose SS V S >Hyperchase Just a lot of fun I mean really if you ever get to try this game don't pass it up because it's on a weird little vertical green lined screen. It's really fast and really responsive, you can see way ahead of you due to the vector graphics which adds a bit of fun with you being able to anticipate obstacles. For a single player gofast game it shines brighter than you might imagine for such an old game. Easily the best Vectrex game I've played so I wanted to suggest it. >Star Wars (Atari - 1983) This game is just fucking great have you ever played it it is so fun it's super fast you fly around and shoot shit and blow up deathstars everything this game has it all did I mention you're sitting in a cockpit yeah that's great it really is great don't forget how integral controls are to a game because Atari didn't when they made this Not really looking to make an argument for these two because they're so old and likely no one has played them. If I'm wrong please correct it >a Light-Gun section including Shooting Gallery, Rescue Mission, and Point Blank 2 among others I think this section speaks for itself. I simply chose 3 games that all applied but were all different. Shooting Gallery being just what the name says, Rescue Mission being a more action oriented save people game, and point blank being a great game that spams you with minigames >SEGA CD versions of NBA Jam and Earthworm Jim Better audio, EWJ the definitive version is on SCD with more levels and everything. If NBA Jam is on here it should actually be the arcade version, not any of the ports >At least one cute-'em-up Just for representation >Phantasy Star Every time I've posted about this for the past few years I've said "this is the greatest 8-bit JRPG ever created." I have yet to be challenged on that, only agreed with. If this doesn't change ITT I think that should speak for itself. Because Phantasy Star is the greatest 8-bit JRPG ever created. >An indication for if a game is multiplayer with vs, co op, online, and couch distinctions would be nice Speaks for itself. I think it would increase the utility for people looking to play something if they knew they could look to it when they're alone as well as when they're trying to play with others >Bishi-Bashi Special There's no minigame games on the list are there? This one rules. Like point blank it simply spams you and others with minigames. It's a lot of fun and you can put it on for anyone that isn't colorblind. >Pop'n Tanks Cute little 3rd person tank game with fast paced arcade like action using chibi tanks and a catchy little soundtrack. I tank you in advance for seeing why this should be on the list
Are you putting descriptions for each game based on what anons say? There's no need for that.
>>9828 Do you mean in the chart itself? I think the descriptions ITT are for discussion and arguments on if a game should be included.
>>9828 Not in the chart itself no. >>9829 is correct.
>>9657 >2033 Not a hardcore fan but from what I hear the original version is good and the redux is shitty or something typical.
>>9826 >Hyperchase There's a Vectrex no-intro set in the vola in the share thread.
>>9835 That is 100% correct, if it was going on at all seems unlikely it'd be original. >>9824 >>9820 On further reflection I'm probably shitting on rimworld more than it deserves here. Just been burnt by too many of these sorts of games in the past. >>9826 >>9825 Noted all of these particularly the beat em up stuff. >plot is not a reason that games are good or not, I know It can add to the game depending on the genre but usually only in a very minor way. For RPGs that aren't focussed on mechanics plot and general writing can be essential.
Anyone know which of these two is more recognisable? Everyone else in the world but the burgers got the second one seems like.
>>9839 They look exactly the same.
>>9840 Guess I'll just pick the one with the smaller version of her retarded face and the easier-to-read font.
>>9841 The second one with the cursive font is more recognizable though.
>>9842 Nigger. Will only take a second to change at least.
>>9842 No use the other one.
>>9845 One change only. Now someone give me the 'proper' cave story cover because I can't find the one in the original chart in proper quality.
>>9844 >>9845 The cursive cover looks more sophisticated, like a cover to a romance novel, befitting the game's atmosphere. The burger cover just looks like a very generic early 2000s game cover. Just my 2 cents. >>9846 >Now someone give me the 'proper' cave story cover Have you tried reverse image search?
>>9847 The cursive one is actually the burger one but I went with it anyway. >Have you tried reverse image search? No but it doesn't seem to be particularly official anyway. I've put placeholder text in until I can find something better.
>>9805 >Yes, and also maybe delete one of diablo's because redundant Just like your usage of the apostrophe. Technically it's outright incorrect rather than redundant but that wouldn't have worked. >>9643 >>9656 >Homeworld vs Cataclysm This is a tough one because base Homeworld is better for full on fleet battles and big macro strategy while Cataclysm is way better for tactical fighting and making sure you directly counter what your opponent is doing. If I were to sum it up, Cataclysm is about using the right tools for the right job as well as timing. Homeworld 1 is about building your fleet and positioning it to overcome your enemy and hide your weaknesses
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>>9847 >>9846 >>9848 This proved surprisingly difficult to do with gimp. As soon as someone provides me with some proper coverart it can be replaced. Ignore the green lines, they're only there as a guide for now.
>>9863 Oh and it was supposed to be a furry but it turned out looking like bestiality. My bad.
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>>9865 Then give me the proper cover. The gap upsets my autism.
Looks like there'll be some room in 3D platformers even if we move Jet Set Radio. Probably should add another Tomb Raider, maybe one out of Legend/Anniversary.
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>>9863 This was the cover used last time, so use it again.
Room for a single additional 2D platformer also. >>9883 Thanks. Still not sure if it's official but whatever, as long as the title's readable.
If this chart is for this new board shouldn't we be asking relevant threads, let's say the stealth or fightan threads, for what games should be on the list?
>>9885 Yes. It'd be worth just dropping a post in them and pointing them at this thread though the board's slow enough I'd assume many fags will already have seen it.
>>9884 I mean from what I can tell this was the cover used for the wiiware version, so it should be applicable. as well. Decide on it however you want.
>>9885 The thread is right here. People should find it instead.
>>9886 I agree many have probably seen it but I'll point in this direction as a sign of good will and willingness to cooperate Those threads are right here as well. Communication works both ways.
>>9888 For a chart like this it's better to actively get anons to come contribute opinions. >>9889 Exactly. Go ask them and any other thread that looks relevant. >>9887 For the first version I'll go with the one from last time and then we can decide if we stick with it. Now we've got a bit of room I'm expanding the wide boxes to exactly a double width of a normal cover again so non-standard covers are ok where it makes sense.
Sure but I'll stagger it so I'm not just flooding. Will bump a couple threads later tonight or tomorrow
>>9643 C&C 3 doesn't really need to be in there, there's already 3 different C&C games on that list and although they're widely different in gameplay aspects they're still the same series. I'd say reduce them all to just Red Alert 2 and add more RTS games like Army Men, AI War: Fleet Command, BattleZone or Warzone 2100
>>9894 Ok. I've almost done the first column had to fuck off for ~14 hours halfway through, the rest won't take anywhere near as long after which I'll post it with a grid overlay on so fags can see where there's new spaces. It's a direct copy of the previous version without any suggested/discussed changes done yet, with the exception that I've widened some of the SNES boxes I'd cut down, so it's just a WIP image. I did sometimes pick a different cover where the old chart had a wrong/weird version or where there was better quality available this resulted in some PAL/NTSC differences particularly for PSX games though I've generally favoured the version from last time wherever possible.
>>9897 Red Alert 2 is entry-tier. It doesn't offer the full scope of the franchise. I say we keep a Tiberium title in.
>>9900 The problem with the Tiberium titles is how unbalanced they are. Dawn's Nod campaign has a terrible middle section with commando mission after commando mission. Sun's GDI campaign can be a slog later on because of Nod arty much like real life burgers GDI cannot into howitzer and also Sun's setting, while good in its own right, is a bit of a departure in tone from the rest of the franchise. 3/Kane's Wrath isn't a great representation of the peak of the series. RA vs RA2 it a matter of how much the sillier humour and everything about Yuri gameplaywise of 2 bother you as a player vs the limitations of 1. Even Generals vs Zero Hour vanilla isn't clear cut. Just about the only objective conclusions for the chart are RA3 being out and there never being a fourth Tiberium game.
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Here's the options for dorffort covers. Last time it appears a cropped version of the second image was used. The bottom one was apparently from the Desura release so it'd be the most 'official' that isn't one we did from chopping up the website version. We could just go with the dorf face with or without text as well since it's fairly well known.
>>9900 It might be entry-tier, but it's the peak of the entire series when comparing all games. C&C3 never really got better than Tiberian Sun even if TS was such a piece of rushed shit lacking half its factions and unit balance being all over the place. KW could be somewhat comparable but it broke the singleplayer campaings in favour of multiplayer, and doesn't really top RA2 anyway.
>>9906 >>9902 If we get around to including total overhaul mods I can see a fair argument for DTA's inclusion. I knew the RTS section would be a problem. The mess that is the RTS chart alone makes that obvious.
>>9905 Also an option: the dorf mining blue shit from the brief splash screen. The shitting lemon monster isn't exactly great.
>>9902 The commando missions were a low point but other than the A-10 AI, TibDawn is okay. TibSun is easy for Nod because their artillery is laser accurate, but it's not really a slog in either campaign. Firestorm though can get boring on the Nod side since the artillery was their strongest unit in the base game. Generals is not that good of a C&C game for a variety of reasons, hence why I recommended the most mechanically refined game in the series with the original's identity, that being 3. >>9906 RA is a downgrade from Tiberian Dawn on many fronts and RA2 is basically throws the whole story and theming elements of the originals out the window with crazy wacky units and funny dialogue. They don't really represent the franchise as strongly as the Tiberium timeline, what with Red Alert 2 being a spinoff in the first place.
>>9911 Specifically in the case of C&C and RTS it's acceptable to have 2 entries as per the rules laid out in >>9800 the changes Generals makes with building, powers etc would allow for a third entry but only if it's up to it in terms of quality. That'd allow for one Red Alert game and one Tiberium game, again leaving the Generals vs Zero Hour vs any Generals at all for later. It does leave the question of DTA though.
Looks like I won't need to bump the rts thread
>>9906 >it broke the singleplayer campaings in favour of multiplayer You mean in terms of balancing and units or plot-wise? KW's campaign content is separated from 3's, and the story is basically covert operations explaining how Kane came back to life and reunited Nod after Firestorm. >>9912 Don't worry about space for DTA. There's a whole RTS chart over at /rts/ that lists everything. I'd contest RA2's slot on the basis that it's an isometric 2D title along with its predecessors, while 3/KW is a fully 3D C&C game. >>9914 It's over the bumplimit.
Kane's Wrath does have vidtrack?related, at least. Hands down the best track of C&C3. >>9915 >There's a whole RTS chart over at /rts/ that lists everything. Fixing that is my next project. I promised to do it over on 8/vg/ and never got around to starting.
>>9918 >Fixing that is my next project. I promised to do it over on 8/vg/ and never got around to starting. But I fixed it already and I solved the argument for what to put on the essentials chart.
>>9920 >blank image How odd.
>>9911 >Originals identity But that's wrong. On the gameplay side of things, C&C3 plays nothing like C&C1 with the addition of infantry squadrons instead of simple units, multiple building queues instead of speed multipliers, build radius limitations, General's tech superpowers, vulnerability points for vehicles, etc. It is a mechanically-refined 3D game but it only copies from other examples in the genre to try and imitate how they play with a C&C flavour added on top. On the story side of things, it's a travesty compared to even TS's nigger voiceacting and it downplays the dangers of tiberium and its effects on fauna and humans and thus lacks the gloomy, comfy and dreadful atmosphere that TS had. Plus it also doesn't play on the effects of the War itself like C&C had done with its unfiltered 90's grittyness, displaying only "how oh cool the landscape is now JELLO CRYSTALS" instead of the millions of people dying to tiberium sickness in hospitals or your units turning into goddamn god-forsaken mutants hellbent on the destruction and assimilation of everything around them, if they dare walk a few meters into a tiberium field. It ends up playing like a generic sci-fi flick about how Nod and the aliens are gonna fuck up the earth but GDI is gonna stop them, or how GDI is a bunch of oppresors and Nod is totally-not-terrorists instead of the professional army with differing tactics and ideology it is supposed to be. And you're completely wrong about RA being a downgrade of C&C, it's the opposite. It added more units, had arguably higher quality and longer FMVs, way more music and track variety, way more missions and expansions and it even has better multiplayer and balance all through enough that it is still top of the list on CnCNet even after the remaster. You could argue the storyline is better in C&C compared to RA1 but it lacks a lot of content in comparison, plus it still retains the gritty feeling of cruel war that C&C had, as the main struggle is still just a mad power trying to dominate europe and nuke everything on its way. However, you're correct that RA2 is a complete joke story-wise because of the art direction and units introduced in that game, it goes completely wack. The strong point of RA2 is how well-executed the campaing is and how fun it is to play when compared to all other titles, it simply can't be matched in that The biggest issue i find isn't even which C&C title should be there, but rather that other RTS titles could fill the chart instead. There's no show or space for something like Warzone 2100 which did Metal Fatigue's unit customization but BETTER and with a much bigger scale in both technology and map sizes. With all units you could field that weren't infantry being completely customizable down to the locomotion, chassis and weapon system, having such a large amount of variants each with their own upsides and downsides that making multiplayer tech trees guides could fill several 300-page books all on its own. Or BattleZone with how it is a wonderful mix of FPS-RTS with NOTHING being even close to how well it plays, even the recent Executive Assault being dwarfed by it in nearly every aspect you could mention.
>>9923 We'll get some more space when I expand it but I'd also like to double check if games the RTS thread discovered like Submarine Titans or Arsenal are actually worth including or are better put into a hidden gems chart.
WIP so it looks a bit rough and I've cut the text off the top for this. I'll probably close the spacing up a bit and maybe stick a gradual white -> grey gradient in the back of it to reduce the amount of white space but it seems to be working well enough. Quality looks a bit higher too. As I said haven't made any changes yet.
>>9923 >C&C3 plays nothing like C&C1 It does. The major differences are in the options to move units, upgrades, some units having abilities, and special command powers, but in essence it does play the same, just in a 3D environment. The core gameplay is still the same, and was only built upon. Fact is, Generals did this poorly. Westwood knew jack shit about making 3D RTS and their first attempt was bumpy. They copied other franchises' methods like, for example, Age of Empires' basebuilding, which is done done by builder units over time, open to attacks, instead of being built from the interface and deployed when complete like the originals. C&C 3 rectified this. Generals had a horizontal bar instead of the classic right-side vertical bar. C&C 3 brought it back. Balancing in Generals was all over the place and units were slow, product of Westwood still being on a learning phase at the time with 3D gameplay. C&C 3 amped the speed to be more like the originals. >it's a travesty compared to even TS's nigger voiceacting That's exaggerated. TS' ending left little in terms of plot for future games to follow, with CABAL being effectively lobotomized by the end of the war, which would make his eventual return in WW's Tiberian Twilight jarring. >Downplays the dangers of Tiberium I suggest you take a look at the portrayal of red zones in the game. They're desolate landscapes devoid of life due to Tiberium absorbing all nutrients and making them inhospitable. And then you have places that are fucked beyond recognition, like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Zjf1o_Dr2c Tiberium particulae in the atmosphere getting so saturated that it blocks the sunlight. Tiberium amalgamating into giant monoliths distorting the landscape. Complete lack of life of any kind. How is that not gloomy and dreadful? >it also doesn't play on the effects of the War itself like C&C had Vanilla C&C 3 literally opens with EVA warning you that Tiberium infestation is at a critical level and rising civil unrest is paving the way for another Nod uprising, and the world's population, still stuck in yellow zones, dying by the thousands every week. Kane's Wrath opens with Kane inside a destroyed bunker and consolidating whatever's left of Nod while said bunker is still crumbling. The whole game gives off the vibe that the planet can't take another war. And then the Scrin arrive. >It ends up playing like a generic sci-fi flick about how Nod and the aliens are gonna fuck up the earth but GDI is gonna stop them It ends with Kane sending a Tiberium bomb into the atmosphere to cause a blip on Scrin's radar. He lured them to Earth to steal their technology, but they reacted too fast and by the end of it Nod and GDI had to strike a momentary truce to stop the invasion. Hell, in GDI's campaign you're given the choice to nuke a Scrin relay with a tiberium-based bomb and sacrifice GDI's reputation AND fuck the planet up even more to stop them.
>>9923 >And you're completely wrong about RA being a downgrade of C&C Gameplay wise, RA1 is a complete fucking mess. I can tell you this because I've played both TibDawn and RA1 back to back. >Units sometimes don't listen to commands and remain still when ordered to move or attack, most likely caused by a limit to how many units you can command at once (which is retarded because the game has no popcap, and neither did C&C95, where you could actually move dozens of units at once with no problem) >Units will take the wildest ways around to get to the location they're ordered to go (usually the path closest to the enemy base for some reason) and when ordered to return, they take over a second to actually respond to the command and turn around >When ordered to attack a moving enemy, some units will instead move towards the exact spot the enemy was when told to attack, then follow the enemy unit like retarded ducklings following waypoints, requiring multiple clicks on enemy units so they'll get the message >Even when right in front of the enemy, some units will simply not attack (like the submarines getting stuck on each other all the time) >Command Powers such as airdropped bombs will land way too far away from the designated spot, to the point of completely missing the target >Units will charge suicidally towards enemies when ordered to attack even when they can fire from their current position. It makes using V2's and Artillery a massive pain in the ass to use because they will move into the range of an enemy turret for example rather than remain at a safe distance As for game balancing in Singleplayer: >Comparatively, Allies has like 30 different ways of dealing with air units (Rocket infantry which are cheap and fast, Chronotanks, Destroyers with ridiculous range, and AA guns which are cheaper and more efficient than than Soviet SAMs), essentially having total air supremacy >USSR only has shitty SAM turrets, and slow-ass Mammoth Tanks, the former being a base defense that can't even 1v1 an Apache and the latter being overpriced for the job of AA >Terrible asymmetrical balance in general where Allies not only have more versatile units than the Soviets, but also some of the Soviet arsenal as well, like paratrooper drops Coming fresh off of my yearly playthrough of Tiberian Dawn earlier this year, RA was fucking jarring. It wasn't hard, but very, VERY tiring and unfun to play. It's actually worse than Tiberian Sun's balancing that stacks everything in favor of GDI. The FMVs and music may have been good, but WW somehow managed to fuck up the gameplay and balancing. I forgive its plot since it ties in with the Tiberium series, but it doesn't have the same urgency as the latter. The most strife you see is Stalin losing his mind and executing most of his subordinates, which is historically accurate, funnily enough. RA2 just went full retard with the story, it almost felt like a cartoon version of C&C, which bring me back to the point that it did not share the identity of the previous games. Gameplay is fine, but the cartoonish theming just wasted the potential. C&C is at its best when it's presented as gritty. >Warzone 2100 I'd replace Metal Fatigue with it, frankly. MF is another wasted potential story that made me sad when I played through it. WZ2100 plays so much more smoothly, all it's missing is the mechs.
>>9928 >HL2 HL1 is better though.
>>9931 We'll get into that debate once I've moved the chart as it exists now over into the new format and I've made the uncontroversial changes.
>>9929 >and then you have places that are fucked beyond recognition, like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Zjf1o_Dr2c Looks like a normal South American city to me just without the police death squads.
>>9800 >We'll need a hard definition for Dungeon Crawler vs older CRPG/WRPG first. How about a definition of WRPG? Because without a Dungeon Crawler category, games like Etrian Odyssey have nowhere to go.
>>9935 >How about a definition of WRPG? 'RPG I couldn't put in any other category' you make a good point
Well what defines WRPGs? Wizardry and Ultima? Then it would be turn based dungeon crawlers and turn based adventure (?) RPGs? I've never played Ultima
>>9937 Combat. JRPGs have the "one team attacks at a time" style, while WRPGs are more freeform.
Come to think of it why is Marathon Trilogy being represented by the Dreamcast version of all things? As far as I can see that's just an unfinished port of the existing open source implementation.
>>9940 It's possible that was used only because there's no better Aleph One image for the trilogy. Either we need to get one from the bits on their site's banner or pick the strongest of the three Marathon games to stand by itself.
Do we really need 6 rpg sub-genres? If it has action, its likely action rpg. if its turn based it can go into turn based rpg, the rest can be just rpg. Most people are unable to articulate what the difference between these "jrpg wrpg crpg" genres is. And no one cares. rpg Action rpg turn based rpg
>>9928 Looking good! Here are some suggestions: >for double "landscape" covers, put them all under the same column for consistency >center the text vertically within the tiles and not just horizontally >replace the square covers with portrait-sized ones, either find a portrait image or crop the square image into portrait >change that godawful font holy shit How exactly did you make those green lines? And did you stretch any covers (without maintaining aspect ratio)?
Grim Dawn absolutely needs to be added, I don't think this is even up for discussion. I propose HoMM 5, or HoMM 5.5 mod specifically to be added to turn based strategy. It could easily replace Disciples or Rance. I have no idea what that soldier with TA letters next to him is supposed to represent or what that Orion game is about. >>9657 >>Metro 2033 >Overrated in my opinion but willing to hear arguments for it to be included. Overrated, but still good. Add it to "shooter on rails" :^). >>Clive Barker's Undying <no note here either It's a good game. I can't describe it because I played it long ago. Just play it, it's not very long. >>9802 >>RPG >Divinity original sin 1/2 I agree, even if it's the dreaded mainstream.
Oh, and, what about literal who titles? I want to propose Assault Android Cactus too. It's a twin stick shooter. I already shilled it in a different thread: >I hate every single twin stick shooter I played except this one. I've S+'d it on most characters. Can't really point out exactly what i like about it aside from it being pretty polished, having good music, and having great feedback on your gameplay performance. I just need some anons to play it and offer their opinions on it, unless unpopular titles aren't fit for this list.
>>9949 The problem with that is that they're vastly different in style and game design considerations. If you lump them all into "RPG", you also get games with six or seven different sets of primary core design considerations passed off as pretty much the same. The separation exists for a reason and people widely acknowledge it, and until it can be clearly articulated what that reason is and it is clear that it is a stupid distinction, I don't think it's a good idea to remove it. The problem becomes a matter of defining the genres. You have a good point, though, because noone can fucking agree on a definition, which I imagine is how fifteen subgenres of RPG sprung up in the first place, some of which bear no resemblence to each other at all. At this point, it's a marketing term for "your character incrementally improves via a series of nodes or their numerical statistics". It might be my inner /tg/ getting angry, but I never liked how JRPGs were labeled as RPGs at all, as they possess even fewer qualities reminescent of RPGs than other categories. An alternative point could be considered - the list almost exclusively uses currently broadly accepted game genres, because they're easily recognized and usually understood despite some ambiguity. Is that an argument for lumping all RPG genres together, or for keeping them separate? Maybe if there's only a handful in the list, they could be kept together, or maybe they could be added to subsections under the main RPG label, further divided into the subgenres. Finally, in direct opposition to the points I've raised above, and along the lines of the alternative suggestion I proposed, would there be a significant problem caused by merging God games with Sandbox games? It's a pity that so few God games are made these days, let alone good ones, and I have to wonder if it's worth keeping the genre around at all. The Sims 3 can be in Sandbox, I don't know why Black and White couldn't be too. >god games Black and White 2 >twin-stick shooter or real-time tactics Brigador could belong in either, if >>9954 gets AAC in, even if it's a lot more tactical than most TSS tend to be.
>>9949 >Most people are unable to articulate what the difference between these "jrpg wrpg crpg" genres is Easy: >jrpg isn't actually rpg >wrpg has trannies in it >crpg is more rpg than regular rpg
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>>9811 >Might be a good idea to post in that fighting game thread asking fags to come give opinions. Fighting games are uniquely positioned, in that the demands of a casual player are totally different from the demands of a competitive player. Casuals want big rosters, story modes, beautiful graphics, good animation and voice acting, and lots of single player content which lets the game act as a single-player experience. Competitive players (not tournament players, just people who play it competitively) want the opposite: good balance, good offensive and defensive structures for mixups, a fully-featured training mode with lots of tutorials and information. The only thing these groups have in common is a desire for good netcode, which is sadly the one thing that almost every fighting game lacks. So, for the purposes of this chart, do we want to distinguish between games with good casual or competitive content, or do we want to just list games that are good based on their core mechanics? Furthermore, do we want to cover the various genres of fighting games (3D games, 2D grounded games, 2D airdashers) or do we just want the best the genre has produced? For casual-friendly games, I can suggest: >Mortal Kombat 9 >Soul Calibur II or III >Dead or Alive 5: Last Round >Garou: Mark of the Wolves >JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Heritage for the Future And a few more that I can't say due to my lack of experience. For competitive games, I can suggest: >Melty Blood Actress Again Current Code >Guilty Gear XX Accent Core +R or Guilty Gear XX #Reload depending on your tastes >Street Fighter 3: Third Strike >Vampire Savior/Darkstalkers 3 >Virtua Fighter 5: Final Shodown (maybe) Then there are some games that could fit in both categories, like Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, and Samurai Shodown V Special, because they are approachable, fun, and beautiful despite lacking features like training modes or single-player content. I think the best way to handle this division is to have three sub-categories: >Hardcore Competitive For games that will appeal to fans of the genre due to their deep mechanics. >Casual Competitive For games that appeal to veterans and newbies alike due to their simple mechanics and good game feel. >Casual Single-Player For games that appeal to casuals who don't ever want to learn anything about fighting games, but who still appreciate the spectacle of them. Does anyone have any better ideas? I know subdivisions like this are usually frowned upon, but there are so many different types of fighting games with different strengths and weaknesses that I can't figure a better way to handle listing them.
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>>9949 >Most people are unable to articulate what the difference between these "jrpg wrpg crpg" genres is. And no one cares. Speak for yourself, fag.
>>9980 Oh, and I forgot to mention that Killer Instinct 2013 is also a game that would go in all categories due to it being a polished competitive and casual experience with good netcode, held back by an annoying combo system.
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>>9928 Half-Life 2 is a first-person shooter, not an action adventure game. If you wanted something like it, then the Metroid Prime games would be better candidates. Half-Life is also the better game, so I suggest replacing HL2 with HL1, with or without expansions. I also notice that there is no FPS category as of this moment, and there seems to have been some discussion regarding how to handle it. Is there a definitive list of FPS games?
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>>9633 I think you should add The Dark Mod to stealth. Despite its name, it's now a freeware game that recreates and enhanced the Thief experience. It's shortcomings are in its sound design and lack of progression, but it's still a decent game. I'd also add Hi™an 2 because it's really quite good. It has some misgivings, but for the most part it plays better than Blood Money.
>>9950 >for double "landscape" covers, put them all under the same column for consistency I try to do that but priority is for earlier games in a series to come before later ones. I also try and group games of similar gameplay where possible. >center the text vertically within the tiles and not just horizontally Will try. Still getting used to the alignment tool. >replace the square covers with portrait-sized ones, either find a portrait image or crop the square image into portrait Might be possible for early PSX games but I didn't want to bias in favour of one type of game's cover. >change that godawful font holy shit Just the one I inherited from the original chart. Open to other suggestions. >How exactly did you make those green lines? Transparent layer then Filter -> Render -> Pattern -> Grid then made the lines 15 wide and added 15 to the spacing option to account for it, hiding it when I don't want to see it. If I were to do another chart I'd change it up by using whole integers for the sizes and then making the image-wide grid exactly half the size horizontally and vertically of the category-specific grids each category is currently a layer group of the category's title and all of the games merged into one layer so I could space the categories exactly half-a-tile apart vertically and horizontally instead of a full tile. I'd rather not start again for this though. I will probably cut the white space on the far edges of the sides down for the eventual product because I can change the grid's offset to account for that without causing a problem. >And did you stretch any covers (without maintaining aspect ratio)? Yes. At first I experimented with just forcing every game to DVD size/aspect ratio but this not only hurts CD-sized games but also the box art of big box PC games which was more square. I settled on a solid compromise of a tile being 155x200 pixels, a square case being 155x155 and a doublewide being 325x200. A hypothetical doubletall would be 155x415 but it hasn't come up. Sega Saturn games and PSP games will probably keep their original aspect ratio since they're so rare it doesn't fuck things up too much and they really suffer from stretching. The other option would be to let every game 'float' in the middle of the boxes but at their original aspect ratio like the square boxes but that really doesn't look good at all. >>9949 Anons were actually wanting an extra category for Dungeon Crawler. It's a difficult one and I'll happily admit WRPG currently just translates to 'RPGs I couldn't put somewhere else'.
The text should be more readable when I get there as I'm redoing the chart from the ground up with full res covers I've downsized then used gimp's superior jpg compression shit rather than these which were repeatedly compressed jpgs someone else put in then I fucked with using literal paint. This is part of why it's taking so long, along with needing to sleep, hunting down quality covers so many covers are fucking terrible and have this annoying 1-2 pixel wide border that's extremely notable when they're resized and my autism dictated I crop it out and working out how best to do things with gimp. >>9953 >Grim Dawn absolutely needs to be added, I don't think this is even up for discussion. Grim Dawn replacing Diablo II or adding? I have nothing against replacing it. >I propose HoMM 5, or HoMM 5.5 mod specifically to be added to turn based strategy. It could easily replace Disciples or Rance. Will look at, though we have III. >I have no idea what that soldier with TA letters next to him is supposed to represent TripleA, a FOSS implementation of the Axis & Allies boardgame Risk with actual depth if you're unaware with a fuckton of alternative scenarios not just WW2 and different rulesets. Also active multiplayer surprisingly, though you can play vs AI just fine. >or what that Orion game is about. That's Master of Orion. Top-tier space 4X game. >Clive Barker's Undying Likely this will fill one of the newly opened slots in Horror. I'd like to remove a Silent Hill finally but it's almost impossible for fags to pick one of the three to drop. >>9954 Any game is fine as long as its the top of its genre. Popularity or influence have no bearing. >>9955 >would there be a significant problem caused by merging God games with Sandbox games? It's a pity that so few God games are made these days, let alone good ones, and I have to wonder if it's worth keeping the genre around at all. That's why I went for Management & City over god. >Black & White I believe this lost out in a very early cut for being a bit weaker than many classic RTS/God games. Likely to make the grade now there's more room. >2 1 is more commonly liked but willing to hear arguments either way. >Brigador Probably going into Vehicular Combat but I'd consider a twin-stick category if fags can come up with at least 7 games without resorting to filler.
>>9980 >So, for the purposes of this chart, do we want to distinguish between games with good casual or competitive content, or do we want to just list games that are good based on their core mechanics? Good core mechanics first, then if possible balancing the casual and competitive ends of the genre, limited to one per franchise specifically in this category. There'll be room for two more 2D fighting games over the image in the OP. >Furthermore, do we want to cover the various genres of fighting games (3D games, 2D grounded games, 2D airdashers) or do we just want the best the genre has produced? We're definitely going to keep a 2D and 3D fighting game distinction. As a white eurofag I don't know enough extra about the genre for splitting 2D up but the simple question to ask is if it would produce a category with much lower standards for entry because it was less populated (e.g. need to fill 6-7 2D airdasher slots but only 3 actually essential games exist thus letting 4 more questionable titles in). If it fails this test keep 2D Fighting combined. >Does anyone have any better ideas? I know subdivisions like this are usually frowned upon, but there are so many different types of fighting games with different strengths and weaknesses that I can't figure a better way to handle listing them. What about 2D Single Player, 2D Multiplayer/Competitive/Hardcore and 3D fighting games I take it we won't need to split the smaller 3D category? Splits them without putting the negative label of casual on any category and provides a pretty sensible way of showing where they excel. >>9985 >Half-Life 2 is a first-person shooter, not an action adventure game. If you wanted something like it, then the Metroid Prime games would be better candidates. On that subject is the wii trilogy really the peak of Metroid Prime? >Half-Life is also the better game, so I suggest replacing HL2 with HL1, with or without expansions. One anon suggested putting opfor in over base HL1. My opinions lean that way as well since it has less of a repetitive middle section and multiple more amusing guns. >I also notice that there is no FPS category as of this moment, and there seems to have been some discussion regarding how to handle it. Is there a definitive list of FPS games? Look at the OP image. Right now I'm just recreating it. I've since finished the FPS category. >>9986 TDM will probably get added to stealth and Total Overhaul mods are allowed now. >I'd also add Hi™an 2 because it's really quite good. It has some misgivings, but for the most part it plays better than Blood Money. Hitman 7*
>>9990 >diablo You can just put "1/2" on top of cover. >strategy Also CnC1 is weak, 2/3/RA2 are great.
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>>9953 >>9990 >I have no idea what that soldier with TA letters next to him is supposed to represent Pics. So instead of just pure numbers and land combat like Risk you have to manage factory placement, different unit types (movement, attack vs defensive stats, abilities), naval and air combat and some other factors. The rulebook PDF is just slightly too large to post but it's here if you want a read https://triplea-game.org/files/TripleA_RuleBook.pdf though rules are per-map each map has its own embedded help and unit database for this reason so it can vary radically from the base rules they give there. The WW1 map for example has zepplins, the Napoleonic one varies types of cav. It's not as complicated as it looks and given that it's free, open source and tiny it's well worth a shot. The big tip for a new player is to remember that one artillery piece can boost the attack of one infantry piece and on the WW2 maps by far the most economical way to defend and attack for a pure 1:1 stacking war is infantry + artillery offensively you'll want to bring 10 infantry to every 7 or so guns so you can take losses on the infantry but that's a different matter. Also I believe there's a low-luck option you can turn on. >>9994 >You can just put "1/2" on top of cover. The question was if Grim Dawn, a game that's of Diablo II's style rather than Diablo(1)'s, was going to replace II or bump something else out of the subgenre. >Also CnC1 is weak, 2/3/RA2 are great. Yeh Tib Dawn is getting replaced. What exactly with has been the subject of a long argument already and I'll let anons bring that to a conclusion before anything changes.
>Orcs Must Die! I'm surprised it's not on the list yet. >King's Bounty: Armoured Princess This one is quite a classic. Maybe expand the turn-based section instead of looking for something to remove? >>9995 Grim Dawn is very similar to Diablo 2 and is objectively better, but removing Diablo 2 just doesn't feel right. Demon Souls could be removed, it's the same thing as Dark Souls anyway. Or you could remove both and get another game in there. Anyone knows about Diablo 2 and Demon Souls anyway. What are the list limitations, anyway? I understand it shouldn't be too cluttered, but some stuff is just to good to replace. And the list is already too big to look at it without zooming in anyway.
>>9997 I think I'm using "anyway" too much.
>>9997 >This one is quite a classic. Maybe expand the turn-based section instead of looking for something to remove? It'll expand just a little bit when I get there. >Grim Dawn is very similar to Diablo 2 and is objectively better, but removing Diablo 2 just doesn't feel right. Demon Souls could be removed, it's the same thing as Dark Souls anyway. >Or you could remove both and get another game in there. Anyone knows about Diablo 2 and Demon Souls anyway. The goal is just to get the peak of the genre regardless of what that peak is, not so much to represent games that simply feel as if they have to be there or to ignore games that are already known. If Grim Dawn is better than Diablo II at what Diablo II excels at it should replace it, it only gets a free place on a chart based on influence or popularity. >What are the list limitations, anyway? I understand it shouldn't be too cluttered, but some stuff is just to good to replace. And the list is already too big to look at it without zooming in anyway. Generally substitute rather than add because it forces fags to really think about what's fairly called best of the best but I am adding a little bit more space this time around. Most genres will get 1-2 more slots, maybe 3.
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Remove shit combat from the flight section and add DCS and falcon BMS
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>>9988 >Will try. Still getting used to the alignment tool. No worries, need any help? >I didn't want to bias in favour of one type of game's cover. Literally who gives a shit? We just want a /v/ chart that looks good and consistent, most other charts look like shit honestly. >Open to other suggestions. I personally recommend "Audiowide", available here: https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Audiowide >so I could space the categories exactly half-a-tile apart vertically and horizontally instead of a full tile Bad idea. This will break the grid once you have categories with different sizes, at least horizontally you'll have covers that are not aligned across columns. Try it and you'll see what I mean... >Yes. Also a bad idea, stretched covers are very obvious, you should either crop your covers or pad them. You already know how to crop to a certain aspect ratio (I hope), padding means the cover will be "fit" into the tile even if its aspect ratio is slightly taller or wider, and the remaining empty space within the tile is filled by either mirroring the cover at the edges or extruding it. See pics related. >>9990 >my autism dictated I crop it out Nah that's not autism, that's what I usually do as well. Also reminder that you can fix covers that are too dark or too light using Levels... Research that or just fuck around with it, it's a life saver for chart making. >I'd like to remove a Silent Hill finally but it's almost impossible for fags to pick one of the three to drop. Oh that's easy, drop all of them and leave 2. If anyone has a different opinion he can debate me.
>>10006 Already moving Flight Simulator to Sims and probably Rogue Leader to vehicular combat or something similar since it's not really a 'true' flight game so some slots should open up. I'll maybe rename the category to flight combat too. >>10007 Will try messing with these particularly the light levels thing so many covers look washed out. Will finish v1 with the existing font then produce a few alternative ones using that font and any ones other fags suggest to see what works.
I demand Sheep Raider be added to stealth. Tell me why I'm wrong.
>>10010 Because Sheep Raider isn't its real name.
>>10011 Up yours Sheep Raider is the same game as Sheep, Dog 'n' Wolf. Same game different name for different regions.
>>10012 >Up yours Sheep Raider But that's not its name either.
>>9993 > I don't know enough extra about the genre for splitting 2D up but the simple question to ask is if it would produce a category with much lower standards for entry because it was less populated (e.g. need to fill 6-7 2D airdasher slots but only 3 actually essential games exist thus letting 4 more questionable titles in). If it fails this test keep 2D Fighting combined. To be specific, grounded 2D games trace their roots to 1991's Street Fighter 2. Airdashers trace their roots to 1998's Guilty Gear. There are dozens of titles in each category, and more than enough quality titles to fill three or four slots in each. >two additional 2D fighting games My suggestions are Samurai Shodown V Special (grounded 2D) and Melty Blood Actress Again Current Code (airdasher). Note that the latter has a community edition which is better than the Steam version and totally free. If we're extending the list in the OP, then I have a few changes which you must make: >replace King of Fighters XIII with King of Fighters 98 Ultimate Match KoFXIII is beautiful in some ways, but its mechanics are total garbage. >replace Mortal Kombat II with Mortal Kombat 9 (2009) There was an MKfag in the 8/v/ fighting game threads, and his opinion was that MK9 was essentially all the cheesiness and style from old MK games with modern features and more single player content than an arcade port like MKII. I'm mildly familiar with the series, and I think that's accurate. >replace Killer Instinct with Killer Instinct 2013 I guess whomever made the original image was told "KI" and didn't realize the old games in the series were kind of trash. The 2013 game is the only one that people actually remember, and is the definitive KI game. >replace Vampire Savior for the Sega Saturn (bottom row, second from right) with Darkstalkers Resurrection The Saturn version has every character available at once, but Resurrection has a very good tutorial mode and is generally the standard way the games are played now. Some other changes which are more subjective: >split the Guilty Gear (top right) entry into Guilty Gear XX Accent Core +R (maximum crazy bullshit) and Guilty Gear XX #Reload (minimum crazy bullshit) The GGXX games had tonnes of revisions, but those two versions have stood the test of time as the versions that people actually want to play. Given that they're two revisions of the same fundamental game, I think it'd be okay to have them share a spot in the chart. Then again, I'm a GGfag so I might be giving the series too much credit. >replace Virtua Fighter 4 Evolution with Virtua Fighter 5: Final Showdown >replace Dead or Alive Ultimate with Dead or Alive 5: Last Round I don't know much about these series, frankly, but I know that the communities for them play the most recent entries. Given how tightly knit those communities are, I think that indicates those games have better mechanics. >category names Those are good names, and yes you won't need to split 3D games into any subcategories.
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>>10015 Right all noted. Once v1 is done I'll make the less controversial changes and hopefully by the fags will weigh in on the others. So is the 2D Single Player, 2D Multiplayer and 3D split sufficient or should we do 2D grounded and 2D airdash instead? It'll have to be one or the other to avoid a really messy/clunky situation. >>10016 Nice. I'll probably add it to stealth though I really know nothing about it. Guess I'll emulate it at some point too. Are you sure it belongs in stealth though? It looks more like a 3D platformer with stealth and puzzle elements. Maybe even a better fit for puzzle game than the other two categories.
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You know I can't actually find a source for this being an official EYE box.
>>10019 As I thought it seems to have never had an actual physical release meaning that can't have been an actual box. I'll probably use the clean version of that original image instead or this which mobygames claims is from the (((Steam))) page.
>>10018 If the purpose of the chart is to focus on core mechanics, then 2D grounded and 2D airdasher are the more relevant categories. Also, note that for KoF98, the distinct version is King of Fighters 98 Ultimate Match Final Edition. It's the version you can get on Steam. Totally unrelated: add Acceleration of Suguri 2 to the Shoot-Em-Ups section. It's a competitive shmup with a variety of different characters and surprisingly deep mechanics. Absolutely a must-play for anyone who likes the genre; you won't find anything like it anywhere else. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSlKZQA2q4c
>>10023 >Also, note that for KoF98, the distinct version is King of Fighters 98 Ultimate Match Final Edition. It's the version you can get on Steam. Best thing to do where one version is needed is get the specific cover you want and post it. Mobygames usually has what you'll need if you struggle to find it.
>>10018 The overly cartoony look and presentation belies the actual gameplay which is stealth with puzzle elements. The platforming is not meant to be challenging, you can either jump on something easily or you cannot jump on it at all. What little jumping you do end up doing seems to serve no more than to connect areas and cage cpu. You may have to jump while finding a secret but the jump won't be the challenge for the secret. In short, to put this in a platforming section would depreciate that section entirely and honestly it simply cannot be compared to those games on terms of platforming.
>>10025 Right. Still think it looks like more of a puzzle game than a stealth game but I was only looking at a quick bit of gameplay.
>>10023 Agreed in keeping the fighting game categories divided to 3. But even then I feel like Airdasher and grounded could be grouped into one, even though there would be valid reasons for it. Then again I'd argue for knocking off Killer Instinct entirely, and maybe doing Xrd as the second GG game. Keep in mind I only have around 20 minutes total for XX Accent Core plus R, so my opinions regarding GG can safely be disregarded.
>>10024 These are the two most relevant covers. MobyGames and the Steam page use the first one, but the second fits better into the chart even if it does have some chink writing on it.
>>10026 Hey try it out sometime
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>>10019 It was this originally, apparently, which fits but doesn't have the text so is pretty useless for a chart. I'll go with >>10022 or someone can edit the E.Y.E. text back on but more competently if this works better. I realise it's completely irrelevant but still. >>10029 Doublewide covers can go in where needed. >>10030 Yeh I've stuck it on the backlog. I intend to do a nostalgiatrip into some PSX games in a few months so I'll work it into that.
>>9633 I wouldn't put games like Ace Combat with IL-2 (some of them at least) or FSX. Both this and the simulation category are all screwed up. Flight sims should include things like FSX, IL-2, Rise of Flight, Falcon 4.0, and that sort of thing. I'd also create a separate category for space games. This would be things like Elite II and TIE Fighter.
>>10031 Go with the double gun one. >>10022 could also work, but it is still preferable to get it akin to how it was on the old, well current, chart.
>>10034 >I wouldn't put games like Ace Combat with IL-2 (some of them at least) or FSX. Both this and the simulation category are all screwed up. Flight sims should include things like FSX, IL-2, Rise of Flight, Falcon 4.0, and that sort of thing I'm thinking of moving the more simulation end to the sim category and changing flight into flight combat but that might not work. Flight Sim, Flight Combat and Simulation seems a bit redundant since only flight sims are getting their own category but then they are a big area of sim autism. >separate category for space games. This would be things like Elite II and TIE Fighter. Isn't TIE fighter specifically really more of a flight sim/combat game with a space setting? A space category should probably get added either way. >>10035 I'll go with the doublegun one if someone can competently cut out the E.Y.E. text from somewhere and put it on so fags could identify the game from the chart.
Honestly I think we need to put the games aside for a moment and get the categories nailed down properly first. Concretizise the genres, alright easy its mosly done, but for instance "adventure" should be split into point-n-click etc it's really vague and "racing" is too specific it should be "driving" or perhaps even "vehicles" and thus I don't think we should shy away from going all in on the sub genres. I know this is a cluster fuck but i think it would help us going forward if we thought some about this.
>>10037 There was a thread, I think on 8/v/, years ago where anons tried to come up with a full genre classification. Other than trying to use the same tools biologists use for species classification nothing came of it. It's one of those things that'll take huge autism but worth it.
For Demon's Souls and Dark Souls I've just gone with the best quality covers I could easily find. I seem to remember the nip covers were preferred man who is sad because his shield has arrows stuck in it and campfire resting respectively but I couldn't get those in good enough quality so if fags want those instead provide them.
>>10051 >nip covers This chart doesn't seem to have captions, so I can't fathom why that would be the case.
>>10037 For the art I think. There are certainly versions out there with readable english text, maybe the nip versions even had that.
>>10038 Coincidentally, I was just thinking about starting a thread regarding genre classification. I'm not because it'll just be unnecessary if we're going to discuss it in this thread.
Ikaruga: gamecube or arcade?
>>10063 Dreamcast
>>10062 Might be worth doing it after we're done here anyway. I'm always up for a good genre classification argument. >>10064 Is there any difference between platforms?
Looking at the Shoot-Em Up section in general there are a lot of covers from console ports over the original arcade games. I don't know if they're better or the original chartfag I never really touched this section found them easier to fit: if the Arcade originals are superior it should be them instead.
Every game should require a "vouch" from two different anons to get on the chart (of course, with a requirement of having played the game). Then, to remove a game that got the two vouches - the person needs to provide some reasons (example: handholding, bad level design, too many cutscenes, bulletspongy enemies, etc). This will ensure only the actual quality games get in - and will likely be cleaner than copying all the 8ch leftovers that might not even be good. I will post my votes if anons do agree to follow this idea. Otherwise, I will vanish into the shadows like Garrett.
>>10037 >get the categories nailed down properly first Looks good enough to me, but I'll offer my opinion: > "adventure" should be split into point-n-click etc No harm in separating point-n-click from the rest, I suppose. >"racing" is too specific it should be "driving" or perhaps even "vehicles" Racing currently consists entirely of arcade racing games. And the Simulator has a "real" racing game. There aren't enough realistic racing games to justify a category for them, and any vehicle games that aren't about racing would probably fit well enough into simulation too. If there even are any that are worth mentioning. That reminds me: >Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed Is a nice arcade racing game. Could go into party games too. Now, what definitely needs to be done is the separation of 3rd-person shooters from whatever you'd call the rest of the stuff. Open world crime games or something? I would draw the line at the Red Faction, everything that has less fucking around goes into shooter, everything with more fucking around goes into whatever the rest of them are. I'd overhaull the RPG classification. Here's my take: >JRPG Really don't care to even look at them. >CRPG Looks perfect. >Action RPG Looks good, but I have no idea about the Japanese games that aren't Souls. I think Kingdom Hearts had that generic menu combat that JRPGs have? It's only action in appearance, basically. Just check them all and add them to JRPG if they have "menu combat". >WRPG This looks like a damn mess. WRPG is basically between ARPG and CRPG. Just throw anything into this section if you don't know what the fuck it belongs to, analysing it makes my head hurt. All I care to say is that Wizardry is basically a western JRPG, it has no business among WRPGs. >FPS-RPG Is this even a real genre? All of these except Deus Ex, FNV and VTMB are easily Action RPGs, they have action and they're barely RPGs. FNV can go into sandbox RPG and the other two into WRPG. If you don't agree, just keep the whole thing as it is.
>>10075 Voting doesn't work on an anonymous site because fags can vote unlimited times. Also the quality of the game matters not how many people like it. Democracy is always a mistake.
>>10078 So we're going to be keeping all the 8ch recommends? Why assume that these games should be there by default?
>>10077 >Racing currently consists entirely of arcade racing games. And the Simulator has a "real" racing game. There aren't enough realistic racing games to justify a category for them, and any vehicle games that aren't about racing would probably fit well enough into simulation too. If there even are any that are worth mentioning. Not disagreeing with the general point but Richard Burns Rally is not an arcade racer. >Now, what definitely needs to be done is the separation of 3rd-person shooters from whatever you'd call the rest of the stuff. Open world crime games or something? I would draw the line at the Red Faction, everything that has less fucking around goes into shooter, everything with more fucking around goes into whatever the rest of them are. A game being open world doesn't necessarily make it not a third person shooter but it is a bit of a vague category right now. >Is this even a real genre? All of these except Deus Ex, FNV and VTMB are easily Action RPGs, they have action and they're barely RPGs. FNV can go into sandbox RPG and the other two into WRPG. If you don't agree, just keep the whole thing as it is. FPS-RPG is a bit or a mixed situation. In a proper classification SoC for example would indeed be an FPS-ARPG or whatever you want to call it but for the purposes of this chart it's better to lump it in here and certainly put SS, SS2 and EYE here since anyone going into them looking for an FPS experience will be very disappointed.
>>10081 First the contents of the old chart get moved over. Then changes are made, including plenty of the ones already suggested ITT. Feel free to start suggested what you'd like added/swapped/removed. >Why assume that these games should be there by default? Well for one thing I know the reason most of them were put there in the first place. The 8chan chart was the output of a good 2-3 years of threads where fags argued back and forth over what should be there.
>>10077 >I think Kingdom Hearts had that generic menu combat that JRPGs have? No it absolutely does not. It uses action-based combat where you can dodge attacks and move in real time. >RPGs I posted a chart in >>9981 that delineates the genres. Do you have any problems with those definitions?
>>10083 There's not that many people here, so if there's undeserved games in the old chart, many of them won't get removed since noone's played them. Can anyone say anything about those sports games, for example? I've never played any of those. And what if I have an addition, but don't know what to remove because I haven't played any of this stuff. I think starting over would be cleaner - just use the old one as a reference.
I support these sports games >thps3 >Neo Turf Masters >SSX Tricky >NBA Jam (change it to arcade poster or at minimum SEGA CD box art. console versions can't compare to arcade.) >1080 avalanche >PGA PGA Tour Golf III Otherwise - Haven't played much of Blood Bowl but it's fun at least. Windjammers should absolutely be on there, they're still playing that game at tournaments for heaven's sake. THUG pro is filler, one original THPS game is the only representation needed for the franchise. The list needs a tennis game. I haven't played enough to say, but it's a necessity.
Metal Slug 3 needs arcade artwork and nothing less. Having 3 Contras is ridiculous. At most have Super C and III. Super Smash TV is the first of its kind, a twin stick shooter with a top down perspective, where one stick moves the player and the other stick shoots. This gameplay is most recognizable in the first two GTA games, so I wonder if GTA II should be in consideration for this category. As far as Turrican goes, I've only played Mega Turrican but the series is imperative to video games and demands recognition in a list such as this. So does Ultima. Is there not an Ultima game that would work for this list? Sunset Riders is essential without a doubt. Party Games should be more than a category - many games on the list outside of this category, such as Metal Arms or Conker's Bad Furday, could be considered "party games" because of their multiplayer. which is what makes any party game right? Regardless, the definition of "Party Games" needs to be reevaluated. Power Stone 2 should be in the party section. Megaman X3 is better than X. Really a lot of the series that have repeats seem to be nothing more than filler to make rows come out even. Fuck sacrificing quality or principal in order to fulfill an aesthetic quality.
>>10100 Keep one GTA title in the sandbox section. Put Wild Guns in the shoot 'em up section.
>>10100 >>10107 >>10099 Noted these for after v1 is done. Last column now. Will finish and post later tonight. >>10093 As a rule of thumb you'd want to have played a lot of games in a genre before you start nominating games as the best of the best in that category. It'd be odd to start commenting on what sports game is best without knowing anything about sports vidya, leave that to an anon who's got knowledge there.
>>10085 >Do you have any problems with those definitions? No, I agree with it completely. Much better than whatever the 8ch list makers were going by, at any rate. Wizardry and DOS titles can go into the new Dungeon Crawler category. Sandbox RPG will be easily split into old and new categories then.
>>10085 >I posted a chart in >>9981 that delineates the genres. Do you have any problems with those definitions? That chart is fucking terrible. At an initial glance: Immersive Sim is not a genre it's a pretentious reddit term for games from a whole bunch of different genres that happen to be in first person in much the same way roguelike/lite is abused for a whole bunch of games from genres that just happen to include procgen and possibly permadeath. The idea that Deus Ex, Thief and Human Revolution occupy the same genre is idiotic. The distinction between a TRPG and TBT is a bit too vague and Jagged Alliance 2 has both Strategic and Tactical elements. The definition of WRPG is crap that applies only to modern AAA games and even then does a poor job: why is Morrowind in CRPG and Oblivion in WRPG other than a pretty evident bias in favour of CRPG from whoever made the chart? Ass Effect also shares very little in common with a game like Kingdom Come. It's unclear what - if anything - distinguishes WRPGs from JRPGs with the definitions given other than the geography of their developers. In fact they're almost word-for-word with the exception of WRPG having contemporary put at the front. The action RPG definition is a very poor fit for Diablo II and games of that style and seems written much more for games like Dark Souls. Ultima Underworld appears in both Dungeon Crawler and Immersive Sim which neatly proves that Immersive Sim is at best poorly defined. Keeping the names of the genres with the exception of Immersive Sim would be fine but the definitions and examples they've given are terrible and should be disregarded. There are also outright though factual inaccuracies in the descriptions like Immersive Sim as a term existing in 1992.
>>10125 >a pretentious reddit term That should be reddit-tier though that said Spector is an overrated faggot either way. There's a reason Deus Ex's EMP cheat was named after him.
>>10125 Immersive Sim is for Action RPGs with really slow action. All the examples are similar in that fashion. >The distinction between a TRPG and TBT is a bit too vague They're the same thing, really. >WRPG Makes perfect sense, the description fits every game in example. Yeah, Morrowind should be there too, I don't see how it's a CRPG. It just has more text than an average WRPG. >JRPG Even more focus on the "rpg mechanics", even less of an RPG than WRPG and made in Japan. >The action RPG definition is a very poor fit for Diablo II and games of that style That's what games of that style are called now. Do you want a "Diablo clone" category or something? Let them be in Action RPGs, it's going to be just the Diablo and Grim Dawn. >Ultima Underworld appears in both Dungeon Crawler and Immersive Sim It's a dungeon crawler, it was a poor example of Immersive Sim. Yeah, Immersive Sim category doesn't really need to exist, you can just add it to Action RPGs.
>>10129 >Immersive Sim is for Action RPGs with really slow action. All the examples are similar in that fashion. Explain how Thief is an Action RPG. And as per the definition of Action RPG in that very chart Deus Ex is clearly not an ARPG. >Makes perfect sense, the description fits every game in example. Yeah, Morrowind should be there too, I don't see how it's a CRPG. It just has more text than an average WRPG. For one thing half the example games fail "pre-determined protagonist with a set backstory and motivations" which is about half the given definition. >Even more focus on the "rpg mechanics", even less of an RPG than WRPG and made in Japan. If you cut out the first sentence which is just background and in no way a definition you can use to test games pretty much every word of the JRPG definition is included in the WRPG definition. >That's what games of that style are called now. Do you want a "Diablo clone" category or something? Let them be in Action RPGs, it's going to be just the Diablo and Grim Dawn. Then Action RPG is a shittily defined genre. Diablo II and Dark Souls play nothing alike and Diablo II clones don't rely solely on player skill for hitting and dodging. Fallout 4 matches up at least as closely to that definition as does Diablo II. >Yeah, Immersive Sim category doesn't really need to exist, you can just add it to Action RPGs. I don't see how Deus Ex, Arx Fatalis or either System Shock meet the requirements for Action RPG given in this chart. Even if they were added there you now have Deus Ex, Arx Fatalis, Diablo II, Dark Souls all sharing a genre. Also Thief for some reason. The chart is shit and pretty clearly made by someone who wanted to stick the games they put in the CRPG section above everything else as the only "true" RPGs. Now that's not to say they're not great games but it's a dumb way to do things.
>>10131 >>10129 >If you cut out the first sentence which is just background and in no way a definition you can use to test games pretty much every word of the JRPG definition is included in the WRPG definition. Here's the chart's definition of JRPG. Other than the parts crossed out which are just meaningless opinion/background on the genre the same content is included in the WRPG definition: <"Roleplaying" in name only; Japanese roleplaying games share very little with roleplaying's tabletop roots. They often have RPG elements in their mechanics such as leveling systems, equipment and party management but similarities typically end there. Arguably the most extensive and varied of the genres, JRPGs can take many forms but almost always have a pre-determined protagonist with a set backstory and motivations.
>>10125 >The idea that Deus Ex, Thief and Human Revolution occupy the same genre is idiotic. I'm not sure if an immersive sim is necessarily an RPG or even a genre, but a game design philosophy. This is why I'd classify BotW as an immersive sim despite it being completely different genre from Deus Ex. >Keeping the names of the genres with the exception of Immersive Sim I think it's important to keep immersive sim on the list and specify that it is not a genre.
>>9633 normalfag tier list
>>10135 >I think it's important to keep immersive sim on the list and specify that it is not a genre. But then it'd be empty because all the games would be under their actual genres. Or did you mean that RPG chart rather than the general essentials chart?
>>10139 I was meaning the RPG chart. As I said, though, I'm not confident to classify immersive sim as a genre, but they share a common design philosophy that allows them to be grouped together in a grouping that can be misinterpreted as a genre.
>>10140 Yeh if we're ignoring the essentials chart for now I'd tend to agree. Immersive Sim is like Open World or Roguelite: a grouping of gameplay elements that games from a bunch of different genres can share but which is not itself a genre. This compares against things like Rougelike or Sandbox which are genres Sandbox is maybe a bit questionable itself really and maybe is also a collection-of-elements.
>>10132 >Roleplaying in name only >meaningless opinion Most JRPGs have literally 0 choices available, even the story heavy ones. Ok, here's something that doesn't conflict with each other, disregard the examples from the image and just focus on this: >CRPG Top pure RPG experience with choices. (Icewind Dale doesn't actually fit in here, but it doesn't fit anywhere else either, except maybe the last option) >WRPG A poor RPG, which is focused more on the "rpg mechanics". More combat, more action and less choices, less story, less non-combat info in general. >JRPG Assorted Japanese RPGs, most Japanese RPGs and Japanese "RPGs" should just go here unless they really break out of the menu combat meme and have action good enough to be in Action RPGs. >ARPG Focus is on action, but doesn't necessarily perform worse as RPG than WRPG. >TRPG These rarely have anything RPG in them at all. Just mix them with other tactical games focused on smaller groups of units. >Dungeon Crawlers They have dungeons in which you crawl, easy. Although sometimes you crawl a bit in daylight too. >Immersive Sim or whatever you want to call it Isn't action enough to be put in Action, isn't RPG/slow enough to be put in anything else. This category should exist because games that would fit here don't really fit anywhere else.
>>10142 It's meaningless opinion because it's not a definition or a testable condition. "Must be in Third Person Perspective" or "Must have party management" are actual genre elements you can try and measure a game having or not having while "Roleplaying in name only" is just a sweeping statement of general opinion on the genre. >Ok, here's something that doesn't conflict with each other, disregard the examples from the image and just focus on this: I'm confused again: is this a general discussion on genre classification or a suggestion for the essentials chart? If it's the former I have complaints but this probably isn't the thread to go into them; I'd be happy to argue over RPG subgenre definitions in another thread dedicated to that topic if you want to make one though. If it's the latter this is basically just adding Dungeon Crawler and renaming FPS-RPG to Immersive Sim, then getting rid of Open World/Sandbox RPG. Other than the Immersive Sim shit and the fact that TRPG would just duplicate Turn Based Tactics the other two ideas are pretty solid so it'd be sensible to do those (add a Dungeon Crawler category, disperse the contents of the Open World/Sandbox RPG category to the others if possible). There's a pretty consistent opinion that CRPG requires the game to be isometric or top down and turn-based though which your definitions would conflict with.
>>10145 > If it's the latter It is. >There's a pretty consistent opinion that CRPG requires the game to be isometric or top down and turn-based though which your definitions would conflict with. You'd need to come up with a 3d non-top-down game that fits my definition first. I just gave a very simple way to classify them, and it just works.
>>10145 >>10142 Oh right and remember there's already a roguelike category as well.
>>10146 >You'd need to come up with a 3d non-top-down game that fits my definition first. I just gave a very simple way to classify them, and it just works. VTM:B? Maybe New Vegas, possibly Alpha Protocol even. I'd have said Deus Ex but the choices & consequences are inconsistent and front/end loaded. The problem with your definitions is "top pure RPG with choices" isn't a definition of anything but having choices which I'm assuming to be choices & consequences. You didn't even include that character stats have to trump player skill which is a pretty key definition of CRPG unless that's what top pure is supposed to mean but that still allows for VTM:B and Alpha Protocol at least. That's before we go into the edge cases for every genre in the post, the fact JRPG is just three different ways to say RPG made in Japan or whatever.
>>10150 >VTM:B? Maybe New Vegas You're right. Well, that's because they are pretty much CRPGs. I have nothing against them being there aside from being a bit unusual for the category. They're definitely a step above WRPGs, putting them in WRPG isn't right.
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>>10157 Then you have an issue of how to distinguish between turn-based isometric RPGs and other pure RPGs that aren't, assuming that's desirable at all but fags generally tend to want that. You could also end up with turn based isometric games sitting in WRPG because they aren't 'pure' RPGs. >They're definitely a step above WRPGs, putting them in WRPG isn't right. That's the problem with treating the genres as a rating of better/worse along the RPG spectrum. Though it's 100% true that the chart right now just uses WRPG to hold RPGs that don't really fit elsewhere and there are some misclassifications. It'd be more consistent to do this: >CRPG Isometric + turn based 'pure' RPGs: a CRPG without choice & consequences is a bad CRPG because action CRPGs are a silly idea. A CRPG which is less concerned about character stats than player skill in using character stats is a turn based tactics game with RPG elements. It's not that purity makes them a better RPG necessarily just that a CRPG that isn't pure (taking pure to mean heavy emphasis on choices and character stats) is either a pretty shit CRPG or belongs in another genre. >WRPG Any other RPG that handles choices to some degree and which specifically puts character stats over player skill in determining outcomes. The latter part is more important here so it'll cover a spectrum from 'pure' non-isometric/turn-based RPGs through to slightly more actiony games as long as the character's stats (including past choices and relationships where relevant) are the most important factor. Alpha Protocol ends up here even though it's just as 'pure' as any average CRPG. >JRPG Nip menu shit, you know the drill. Can include western made games that fit the gameplay profile e.g. Anachronox. >ARPG Games where player skills outweigh character stats. Choices & Consequences less important. Technically Diablo II clones should be their own subgenre with a focus on mechanics and looting but for the sake of the chart that'd be tiny so keep them rolled up with ARPG as suggested earlier. Alpha Protocol should be moved out of this section and put into WRPG. Probably not possible to have a turn-based ARPG as that's really a Turn Based Tactics game. >Dungeon Crawler More or less as you said. Arx Fatalis and Ultima Underworld certainly belong here. >FPS-RPG What it contains now and anything that fags would group under Immersive Sim that's actually an RPG. VTM:B might need to be moved to WRPG. >Open World/Sandbox RPG Remove this category and distribute the games to the other places where they fit. >MMO Not needed. The 1-2 good ones could be put under whichever category they belong in. Then we don't end up with CRPG having out of place games just to indicate how pure they are but also games aren't somehow less RPGs because they ended up in WRPG instead. Away for a while after this post.
>>10164 >Then you have an issue of how to distinguish between turn-based isometric RPGs and other pure RPGs that aren't I myself don't care about this issue, if it is an issue at all. But we can keep it classic too just make it look more legit. >It'd be more consistent to do this: This is good, much better than my simple explanation and the RPG guide image earlier. As for "FPS-RPG" category name, there's an option of calling it "Hybrid RPG" if it ends up with more than just guns in it.
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>>10145 >"Roleplaying in name only" is just a sweeping statement of general opinion on the genre No it absolutely isn't. JRPGs have almost no role-playing aside from the escapism inherent in any video game: you're along for the ride with a group of heroes and have a very strict, linear path to follow for main story progression, potentially intercut with side quests. A CRPG is the polar opposite, in that it models a fictional world or setting and gives the player the ability to interact with it, but not necessarily with the condition that he must be heroic. The player is free to choose a role in the setting and play it. >>10164 I'm not sure if you're the same person, but I agree with these definitions. I'm tempted to make my own chart now and revise the one I posted earlier.
Best roleplaying GAME?
>>10186 SS13
>>9803 >>9805 >>9806 I think if Grim Dawn is added it should specifically be the Ashes of Malmouth cover art. Not only does it have nice tits, but it is the expansion make Grim Dawn an essential game to play. Sadly I can't find a good image for this. Should Yakuza 5 be replaced with 0 since it's a prequel that serves as an entry to the series and is multi-platform? Granted I'm not a veteran of the series, so if anyone is a Yakuza autist they should give their insight. And It probably belongs in "Beat-em ups" Though that could be an oversimplification. The "Open World/Sand box RPG" and "Third Person shooter" sections are a mess. Putting MGS 3 in "TPS" is just silly. While on the subject of both I believe Mercenaries: Play Ground of Destruction should be in the essentials list. I think dirt deserves a spot in Racing, but I don't know if Rally or the first one is the peak of the series. 3, 4, and Rally 2 are definitely a no go for the list. For rhythm and Music" I think we should remove Rocksmith and add Guitar Hero 2 or Rock Band. They are actually video games. Gitaroo man should also be on this list. If the aim is to have one of each franchise on the list I would suggest Dragon Quest V be the essential DQ game. It's got a PS2 port that is fan translated, on multiple platforms where all versions are good, and is essentially the best DQ game in terms of story. Ace Combat Zero should represent the series, no question. 7 was good because it has been so long since we had a proper game in the series, but it's full of annoying filler missions. Final Fantasy definitely deserves a spot on the list, but we'll be here all day yelling at one another to decide which one is "peak". It's obviously XII I think Dragon Quest Builders, Rune Factory, Disgaea, and Senran Kagura should have a spot on the chart, as well.
>>10188 >Yakuza The Yakuza games are a mix of beat-em-up gameplay and open-world exploration like Sleeping Dogs or GTA without guns. I'd say they could fit into either cateogry, but probably lean more towards the "open world crime game" archetype than just being beat-em-ups. I can't speak as to which game is the best in the series, though; I've been meaning to dive into the games for a while but never gotten around to it. >Mercenaries: Play Ground of Destruction should be in the essentials list Playground I will second that. It's a classic, and unfortunately the sequels are pretty terrible. >Senran Kagura Why? Everything I've heard about it indicates that the gameplay of the series is middling filler.
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>>10188 Yakuza 0 could definently replace 5 on that basis, but then you get into the problem of how purists will want people to play the PS2 version of 1 as a proper starting point for the series. Either way I think 0 could take the slot with not a whole lot of qualms. And I'm just going to talk about the possibility of Senran Kagura getting in now since I used to be an active SKfag a few years back. Burst shouldn't be considered an option at all considering the horrid FPS and nearly everyone agreeing that it can be skipped to Shinovi Versus for first timers. Shinovi Versus itself may qualify, but since Estival versus exists and perfects the gameplay in it, so that would be disqualified on that basis. The spinoff games range from being either trash in the genre (Bon Appetit) or kinda ok (Peach Beach Splash). And then you have Deep Crimson which is considered to be the peak of the franchise, but the genre that it would qualify for is Beat Em Up, and I'd say it would come down to how that anon is feeling if it would be appropriate to add to the section, or to have it be used as a "filler slot" if there is some freespace. Either way the only options would be 2 and Estival Versus. Keep in mind I only made it up to Estival Versus when I was actively paying attention to the series, and I never got around to 2 because I thought I lost my SD card which had Burst on it, so I figured why bother.
Also I want to see if this suggestion would work. Should Metroidvanias be called labyrinth platformers, or would that be dumber or more pretentious than just calling them metroidvanias? Only asking since people complain about the name being as worthless as character action and immersive sim.
>>10204 Anyone who complains about the term metroidvania is a colossal faggot, since it means games that emulate the gameplay found in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night (and later Castlevania games) and various Metroid games. Everyone knows what it means, and threads discussing it were the peak of kike/v/ contrarianism. I've seen a few suggested replacement names: >labyrinth platformers >search action games >metroidlikes (as in "roguelikes") All of them are terrible and, as you said, more pretentious than just calling the genre metroidvanias in the first place. It's an established name and people know what it means. >immersive sim I was initially in favour of this one existing, but the anon a few posts above did a good enough job describing why an immersive sim is really just an action RPG with slow action. >character action Meme term pushed by the Super Best Friends Play channel (which I know because I used to follow them very closely). I think it can be replaced with "stylish action," which is a more accurate and descriptive term.
>>9712 >I know nothing of touhou and that was the only one suggested. If fags can come to an agreement on which one is best with some reasoning as to why I'll happily swap it. People will say deathbombing, but more importantly it's a game where 90% of the boss attacks are "here's a giant cloud of shit going really slowly in a fixed pattern, now go through the keyhole gap" over and over again. Touhou is a slow and dense series in general but there's often a good amount of variation within that whereas IN has very little. It gives off a bad impression of what the subgenre is like. Perfect Cherry Blossom is a better choice. And don't add Soku, it's trash and not really even in a fun broken kusoge way. For example the most recent Touhou fighting game is far more batshit and simultaneously less mechanically flawed but nobody plays it because it's worse fanservice (doesn't have the characters people want). It's fine liking shitty games but they still don't belong on a good games list. I'll nominate Eschatos for shmups. It's non-autistic, really well designed, RAD music, does perspective shifting in ways that actually benefit the gameplay. The only bad thing I can say about it is that it's got some shit graphics.
>>10107 Okay well if you want to keep Smash TV then GTA II needs to be on the list because GTA II is better at being a run n gun in every single way compared to Smash TV.
Also what was the reasoning for including Ultimate Spiderman over Spiderman 2?
It would be cool if urls to an archive(s) of the thread(s) that created it was in the metadata of the final version if that's possible
>>10231 >And don't add Soku I second this, although I don't think Soku is trash. It's just a very specific and peculiar kind of fighting game that doesn't have much in common with other fighting games or other Touhou games, or even Touhou fangames.
This slipped my mind earlier, but I wanted to nominate Dark Messiah of Might and Magic for inclusion under the Action RPG category when the chart is ultimately revised. Anyone who's played it knows that the combination of kicking, environmental hazards, magic, and power attacks makes every fight fun, and despite the focus on action and magic, almost every area with humanoid enemies is a satisfying stealth challenge as well.
>>10169 >As for "FPS-RPG" category name, there's an option of calling it "Hybrid RPG" if it ends up with more than just guns in it. That could work. >>10185 I'm not saying I disagree with the opinion that JRPGs are roleplaying in name only I'm saying that that statement is not a testable definition of any sort of gameplay element and thus should not form part of the genre definition.
Almost finished the v1 straight copy of the old chart. A man has to sleep. >>10169 >>10164 Also this would be clearer if I dropped the W from WRPG and just called it RPG because really it's the baseline of the genre with everything else being a sub-genre I know CRPG and Dungeon Crawler came first historically but it makes more sense this way around. Opinions on making it WRPG or RPG in the chart? >>10185 >I'm not sure if you're the same person, but I agree with these definitions. I'm tempted to make my own chart now and revise the one I posted earlier. Do it. If you need help with gimp myself and the other fag ITT can give advice. >>10188 >I think if Grim Dawn is added it should specifically be the Ashes of Malmouth cover art. Not only does it have nice tits, but it is the expansion make Grim Dawn an essential game to play. Where expansions are better than the base game the expansion cover will go in instead. >Sadly I can't find a good image for this. Tried mobygames? It's usually a good source. >Should Yakuza 5 be replaced with 0 since it's a prequel that serves as an entry to the series and is multi-platform? Granted I'm not a veteran of the series, so if anyone is a Yakuza autist they should give their insight. And It probably belongs in "Beat-em ups" Though that could be an oversimplification. It's swapped back and forward repeatedly between 5 and 0 so it's a bit of a toss up. Fags seem to be leaning 0 so it'll probably change. >The "Open World/Sand box RPG" and "Third Person shooter" sections are a mess. Going to kill the former and the latter will get a bit of a rework. >Putting MGS 3 in "TPS" is just silly. Might put it in Action Adventure anywhere that isn't stealth, it's a good game at what it does but that isn't being a stealth game >While on the subject of both I believe Mercenaries: Play Ground of Destruction should be in the essentials list. Probably >I think dirt deserves a spot in Racing, but I don't know if Rally or the first one is the peak of the series. 3, 4, and Rally 2 are definitely a no go for the list. The Colin McRae Rally series probably does but the first game from 1998 is probably not the peak. >For rhythm and Music" I think we should remove Rocksmith and add Guitar Hero 2 or Rock Band. They are actually video games. Gitaroo man should also be on this list. Yeh it needs some work too. Mostly it was about filling it out. >If the aim is to have one of each franchise on the list I would suggest Dragon Quest V be the essential DQ game. It's got a PS2 port that is fan translated, on multiple platforms where all versions are good, and is essentially the best DQ game in terms of story. Ace Combat Zero should represent the series, no question. 7 was good because it has been so long since we had a proper game in the series, but it's full of annoying filler missions. Final Fantasy definitely deserves a spot on the list, but we'll be here all day yelling at one another to decide which one is "peak". It's obviously XII All noted. As said earlier a franchise can in some rare cases get multiple games on the list. >>10199 >And then you have Deep Crimson which is considered to be the peak of the franchise, but the genre that it would qualify for is Beat Em Up, and I'd say it would come down to how that anon is feeling if it would be appropriate to add to the section, or to have it be used as a "filler slot" if there is some freespace. Either way the only options would be 2 and Estival Versus. Keep in mind I only made it up to Estival Versus when I was actively paying attention to the series, and I never got around to 2 because I thought I lost my SD card which had Burst on it, so I figured why bother. Beat Em Up really needs someone with more interest in non-white genres to start suggesting games that aren't just consoleshit. I'm weakest on Fighting Games, Beat Em Ups and the like Eurofag and limited access to arcades which died off much earlier here as is. >>10197 >>10188 See the above about where I'm weak on genres.
>>10290 >Beat em ups Final Fight 3, Hotline Miami 1, Bastion, Jackie Chan Stuntmaster, Transformers Devastation, Armored Warriors. I think SEGA Rally 1 deserves a spot in the racing category as well.
>>10210 >>10204 >name changes Where fags can come up with good non-pretentious/non-forced names I'll swap them but if it results in confusion it's counterproductive. For example there were solid arguments made back on 8/vg/ that there's a third Operational level of game between Tactics and Strategy just like the real life military concept but it'd just mess the chart up and confuse anyone looking at it. Character Action vs Stylish Action might be a good one. >>10237 Out of interest would GTA II fight in a twin-stick/multi-directional shooter genre? I'd think that's where Smash TV would sit. >>10231 Right that all makes sense. >>10260 Yeh that should be simple. Just archive it and add it to the chart. Remind me once we finish this version in case I forget. >>10285 It's already there anon.
If there are arcadefags here can you take a look at genres like Shoot-Em Up and Beat Em Up and check whether or not the arcade original or the console port that's in the OP is the definitive version? I think they've often used the console version just to fit into the gap but I know sometimes the console port is considered superior. >>10031 If fags want this cover for EYE I'm still waiting on someone editing the EYE text into it. >>10022 has the text and otherwise I'll go with that one. >>10291 >Hotline Miami Currently under Run and Gun. While we're on the subject what's the hard difference between the two anyway? Just gun usage? >I think SEGA Rally 1 deserves a spot in the racing category as well. Probably. Richard Burns Rally might get moved to sim along with rfactor.
>>10295 Contra is Run and Gun for example. Main method of attack is, well, guns. They're mandatory, too.
I still can't find a good cover for Guilty Gear XX fuckingtriangle Accent Core Plus R so I'll just stick a placeholder in for now. >>10297 Right that's what I thought. So why does Hotline Miami come under beat em up? I guess shooting is arguably secondary to simply killing. Which genre places higher emphasis on movement?
>>10298 Oh wait I still have the cover I used last time. I think it's a shitty photoshop job though so if someone can come up with better I'll change it after.
>>10290 >dropped the W from WRPG and just called it RPG I don't see why not. "Western" brings me negative associations.
>>10300 It'd also help drive home that JRPG isn't a geographic label just shorthand for the fact it's almost exclusively nips producing that subgenre and it mostly has its origins in japanese interpretation of early RPGs. Moving some nip games that don't belong out of JRPG and into ARPG will help with that too.
Vampire Savior/Darkstalkers 3: is the Saturn version actually better than the PSX port? From what I can see the latter had more content and a cover that's actually readable but I have no idea.
>>10298 >So why does Hotline Miami come under beat em up? It's more about a game about general melee violence than shooting. There are guns, but they're not there from the start in a selection menu or anything. It's like picking up a gun in Final Fight, using all its bullets until it runs out and going back to the punching. In Contra or Wild Guns or Metal Slug, your default attack is a gun by default. At least that's how I see it.
>>10303 Right that's where I was thinking you were going with the logic. The question I've got then is does Beat Em Up sufficiently capture the need to move constantly and the instant death of a game like Hotline Miami? That seems more in line with games coming under run and gun.
>>10304 >That seems more in line with games coming under run and gun. It can fit that description. I suppose it depends on how you see/play it. You could say that shoot em ups involve horizontal/vertical scrolling levels but there are some that don't have automatic scrolling and others which happen in static stages. They're muddy terms nowadays.
>>10305 Yeh that's the problem with shoot em up, run and gun, beat em up and so on. I was just thinking that someone would be pretty disappointed if they tried to approach Hotline Miami like any of the other games in beat em up but would grasp it pretty quickly versus run and gun. If we add twin stick shooter/multidirectional shooter it could help since we can then make run and gun more narrowly defined.
>>10306 Then I'll go with your judgement. Surprise us, anon.
>>10307 God help us all then. I've also just realised Stubbs isn't a third person shooter despite it being in that category for years.
>>10292 >already there fug >>10305 >You could say that shoot em ups involve horizontal/vertical scrolling levels Well Contra has had levels with different perspectives for a long time. Even Contra 3, which is on the chart, has several top-down levels that appear very similar to Hotline Miami. >>10306 >shoot em up, run and gun, beat em up I think shmups are pretty solidly defined as "things that play like Galada and Gradius," run and guns as "things that play like Contra," and beat-em-ups as "things that play like Streets of Rage and Final Fight."
>>10310 >I think shmups are pretty solidly defined as "things that play like Galada and Gradius," run and guns as "things that play like Contra," and beat-em-ups as "things that play like Streets of Rage and Final Fight." We could go like that and stick other games in twin-stick maybe.
>>10311 I think Hotline Miami is an even split between twin stick shooter and run-and-gun. It could fit in either category.
>>10312 Right. I'll see how it looks when we get there I guess.
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>>10310 Run 'n' gun = shooting and platforming. It isn't anything more complicated than that. Contra is a run 'n' gun, and so is Metroid. Top-down shooters (like some parts of Super C and Contra 3) are called top-down shooters. Sometimes they have been called arena shooters, after their daddy Robotron, but alas the Quakefaggots stole that name in the '90s. Behind-the-player shooters a la Contra 1 and 4 are called Cabal shooters, after their daddy Cabal.
>>10210 >Anyone who complains about the term metroidvania is a colossal faggot, since it means games that emulate the gameplay found in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night (and later Castlevania games) and various Metroid games. That's not at all what it means, and you're a colossal faggot for defending its misuse and abuse. If "Metroidvania" is to be used as a genre descriptor (and that's not at all what it was ever coined to mean), then it would be prudent if the games described to as "Metroidvanias" had any of the gameplay characteristics of the games in the Castlevania series that cloned Metroid. Sadly, there are a boatload of Metroid-like games and practically fuckall Symphony of the Night-like games. It's a retarded term, stop using it.
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>>10100 >Super Smash TV is the first of its kind, a twin stick shooter with a top down perspective, where one stick moves the player and the other stick shoots. Anon, I... >>10065 Yes, Gamecube Ikaruga has substantially less slowdown.
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>>9981 >rail shooter >Star Fox >Sin and Punishment Not this idiocy again. Do people seriously think these two images play even remotely the same? The whole point of a "rail shooter" is that you are literally on rails. You can't control where your character is, and this means you've got to shoot stuff down if you want to survive (or sometimes your game doesn't even have hazard at all). Space Harrier, Star Fox, After Burner Climax, etc. on the other hand are 3D scrolling shooters or shmups. Much like Gradius and Raiden, the playing field autoscrolls but the player is in control of an on-screen avatar. This results in a fundamental difference in gameplay allowing the player to dodge hazards coming at them (or even behind them!). And Sin and Punishment, in particular, traces its routes directly back to games like Cabal and Wild Guns. Its gameplay is mechanically identically to those, it simply added into-the-screen scrolling. It is most appropriate to call it another Cabal shooter along with the rest.
>>10322 >Yes, Gamecube Ikaruga has substantially less slowdown. Right so in that case the console port is superior I'm assuming slowdown isn't desirable though I guess it technically makes the game easier.
>>9706 >Consider replacing Super C or Contra II with Hard Corps MegaDrivefag, please. Super C and 4 are the best Contra games. Your pretentious cinematic Contra game is overrated as fuck.
>>10323 I never questioned that because of how the original chart had them but you're right about things like Star Fox . What about games like Time Crisis where you have a binary cover/not in cover?
>>10324 Most Dreamcast ports of NAOMI games had more slowdown than their arcade originals because the Dreamcast has half as much RAM. The Gamecube has the best ports of Shikigami no Shiro II, Chaos Field, and Radirgy as well. Also Ikaruga is a mediocre puzzle game pretending to be a shmup, every game I just listed is better than it. I think we can replace that overrated turd with something else now that we have a couple decades of retrospective.
>>10326 >What about games like Time Crisis where you have a binary cover/not in cover? There can be exceptions of course. But the Time Crisis series still does place you in situations where you need to shoot down incoming hazards, even with the cover pedal.
>>10327 Currently we're one game over size limit in Shoot-Em Up not counting any games we move from rail shooter so we'll need to jiggle it about somewhat anyway. >>10328 Works for me then. The defining factor should be that you can't simply dodge, with allowance for light gun games with a binary cover mechanic. Killer 7 probably pushes that a bit but it's hard to put anywhere else so I'd like to leave it in there if possible. Anything else in there we need to move?
>>10329 >>10328 Binary cover meaning you can only duck in and out not move around freely to dodge.
>>10322 Well I was wrong about that
replace Final Fight CD with Final Fight 3 and use the arcade art
>>10342 If you can post a good image for the arcade art then sure. It's fine if it has to be doublewide.
>>10343 >>10342 Failing that an arcade flyer that ideally shows the name clearly will do, or worst case some sort of picture of the cabinet where the name could be read even sized down or where it'd blindingly obvious what it is.
>>10344 I'm sorry I completely forgot only the first had an arcade version, since the arcade version is the best version of the first and a lesser version (less stuff on screen, slower moves) is already on the list here's arcade art for that to replace the current SEGA CD art
>>10347 >>10346 Right I'll stick it in.
>>10327 >>10329 I don't like Ikaruga much either and it would be good to have a Milestone game included. Super Aleste is the best candidate for another removal I think, since MUSHA's already on there.
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>>9633 Finally done. The ones that are sitting offset into the margins between the columns are not getting cut or anything they're just being stored there since there's less room than before and we're going to be moving and cutting anyway so I didn't bother adding a new line. I'll post the grid one in a sec and then start with some actual changes but consider this the official 'v1' just for the sake of bookkeeping there are technically some very small changes from the 8/v/ one with the covers. Future changes will now be significantly faster since I have a proper base to work with. We can also change fonts etc and for future versions I'll archive the thread(s) used to discuss them as that other fag suggested. So V2 of this which will have the changes we've discussed ITT will have this thread's archive link at the top and maybe another thread if we hit bumplimit too fast.
>>10352 >>9633 With Grid. Don't worry about the fact I've cut off the left hand side of the grid: I can compensate by drawing it with an offfset as needed. I just think it looks better without the whitespace down the side. On that subject we can think about having a gradient in the background now or stick with the pure white if fags prefer that look. What was >>10000 ?
>>10353 >What was >>10000 ? Well shit. My bad. I never even noticed.
>>10319 >Contra is a run 'n' gun, and so is Metroid Metroid is absolutely not a run 'n' gun. The focus is on exploration, and shooting happens to be the way Samus attacks. >top-down shooters I've only heard that term applied to shmups by people who don't understand what shmups are. >cabal shooters Never heard of the term. >>10323 I don't know why you quoted a post about RPG genres to talk about rail shooter definitions, but you make good points. I guess most people conflated the terms because of the autoscrolling present to both genres. >>10353 Looks like a great template; looking forward to the v2 changes. Do you plan to share the .xcf files for posterity?
>>10353 >SF3:3S in the fighting game section If we're only allowed to have one game per series, then I'm honestly a bit hesitant to have Third Strike there, since it really isn't a Street Fighter game, and the core mechanics are honestly kind of questionable even if the game is beautiful and fun (it's also super overrated and horribly balanced, but those are separate issues). A better representation of SF as a series might be SF2 or SFAlpha. I'll post this question in the fighting game thread and get some other opinions.
>>10380 I would suggest SF2 or SF4. Third Strike still has a huge following in certain circles niggers/spics but never reached the broad appeal of the other two I mentioned. The scene for it actively runs off any newbie looking to pick it up and as you said it doesn't play like any other games in the series. I wouldn't consider SFAlpha because it has its own share of quirks. SF5 shouldn't be considered because it's shit. I only suggested SF4 because it attempted to go back to the SF2 roots and managed to get normalfags back into the genre like SF2 did a generation before. It's also more normalfag friendly with the way it handles inputs and is available on all major consoles and PC. SF2 probably deserves the spot though because the entire genre exists because of it. There were games before it but most games are defined from copying what it did well. I'll give some input for the others in the fightan section later.
>>10382 Yeah, for this thread I figured SF2 would be the better example.
>>10352 >stretched covers still there Anon PLEASE. But otherwise great chart, looks clean and tidy. I see you've met the sharpen tool, try not to overdo it... By the way, you don't have to add constantly-changing text onto the chart when you can instead embed it in the image file using the 𝚌𝚘𝚙𝚢 /𝚋 method, I've seen at least one other chart do it. This is also useful for embedding full game names and download links in text format. XCF when?
>>10352 What's with the Snickers?
>>10391 Placeholder for Marathon.
>>10352 Some of my personal nitpicking. Both Earthbound and Mother 3? If we wanna limit it to just one, have that spot replaced by like FFVI. I'd suggest putting in one of the Castlevania GBA games in metroidvania, like Aria of Sorrow. Minecraft for sure in sandbox. You forgot Simpsons arcade for beatemups, and I'd say that Melty Blood is essential in fighting game catagory.
>>9643 C&C 3 is homo anyway.
Reply to me if more input on RPGs is needed. Anon in >>10164 did a good enough job, I suppose? I'm no expert on anything else, but I can say that 3rd person shooters need to be split. I'm going to greentext my suggestions just so the don't get lost: >HoMM 5.5 >Assault Android Cactus
>>10410 I agree with this sentiment but I think there must be another way. Can we not think of a way to have one game from a series and an indication that game x, y, or z from the series is also worth mentioning? If this could be figured out the list would lose bulk while retaining the same information
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>>10434 I think what you're describing is better suited to something like pic related. I think an inforgraph of this size assumes that the reader is willing to look into other games in the series if he's interested in one of them. Perhaps there could be a disclaimer at the top stating "many of the games in this chart are from long-running series which have multiple worthwhile entries."
>>10425 You're the only homo here.
>>10379 >Looks like a great template; looking forward to the v2 changes. Do you plan to share the .xcf files for posterity? Yeh I'll stick them on catbox or something. Fair warning they're ~130mb with the grid. >>10380 >>10382 >>10384 Right I can start making changes. >>10389 I have all the covers saved so if I ever want to change things I'll just knock up a script to handle the filler and whatever. >By the way, you don't have to add constantly-changing text onto the chart when you can instead embed it in the image file using the 𝚌𝚘𝚙𝚢 /𝚋 method, I've seen at least one other chart do it. This is also useful for embedding full game names and download links in text format. Can jpg handle the embedded text? >XCF when? Soon >>10391 Marathon placeholder bong joke, don't ask until we can sort out which to include. The image that was there before is a poorly done console port of the open source implementation that didn't even allow saving.
Going to start making the most obvious changes now like splitting out a few new categories. Expect this to take a while but hopefully nowhere near as long as the basic chart. >>10410 >Both Earthbound and Mother 3? If we wanna limit it to just one, have that spot replaced by like FFVI. There can be more than one of a franchise as per >>9800 so it comes down to if one is obviously superior. >other stuff Will look at. Minecraft I'd want a way to indicate a specific early version if we have it in. >>10438 The problem with this approach is often other games in the series are terrible and sometimes they're equally as good but sit in a different genre or even the same genre. But usually yes it's assumed you can look it up for yourself. >>10430 RPGs seems fairly settled now but feel free to suggest other things if you want.
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Flare is a pretty great little ARPG with a lot more content than you would think. Not really sure what your criteria/curation process is like. I enjoyed it more than I did D2, despite Flare having significantly less depth but arguably more interesting level design with things like traps that are actually dangerous and interesting puzzles. I feel like it's a solid hidden gem in the severely lacking genre, though I don't think very many people here have heard of it or tried it. https://flarerpg.org/
Please move games like Diablo and Path of Exile to the TRPG (trash RPG) category. Click-to-move horseshit doesn't deserve to be in even the same sentence as games that have actually functional or even well-designed action like Phantasy Star Online, Tales games, Gauntlet Legends, etc.
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The 2D shooters category is terrible all-around, seems like a total pleb came up with those suggestions. Here's a list of clearer essentials with more variety and quality that covers historic developments better: Galaga R-Type Gradius II: Gofer no Yabou Zanac Raiden DX Darius Gaiden Cho Ren Sha 68K Dodonpachi Battle Garegga Hellsinker
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>>10451 I'm going to try it out. It looks exactly like Exiled Kingdoms, a game I played (and liked) on Android. It was one of the best options outside of emulation. What's going on here, is it from the same dev or is it some sort of free engine?
>>10454 It could be, flare is actually just an open source game engine as far as I'm aware, but the official game to show off that engine is "Flare: The Empyrean Campaign", which is what I was playing and having tons of fun with. I tried looking up if Exiled Kingdoms was using the flare engine but couldn't find anything.
>>10449 I kinda realized I was hypocrtical with regards to Mother and Castlevania, so yeah honestly then both EB and 3 deserve to be, since thats fine. With minecraft's version, generally a lot of people's introductions and best memories were like the alphas, betas, and near 1.0 releases. You can still have fun with it now, but for many that was the fun
>>10453 Where's Summer Carnival 92?
>>10451 >Not really sure what your criteria/curation process is like Is it a high water mark for the genre, and is it a good example of what the genre's mechanics are like when created well?
>>10457 Bretty cool, but we have Cho Ren Sha 68K. Its author was a big Recca fan.
I dunno but the Witcher 3 and Persona 3 or 4 should be on the list because it's pretty good games. NieR Automata should be on there. Also for nip only games yakuza ishin is pretty good and some of the super robot wars games are really fun.
>>10389 >>10379 XCF: https://files.catbox.moe/zzof21.xcf Helpful notes: https://files.catbox.moe/9g4dnm If there's a good way to embed that much text into the xcf for future use tell me and I'll do it in all further versions. >>10452 >not liking Diablo Now if it was II I could see your point. >>10451 >>10454 Curation process is just if it's at the top of the (sub-)genre in question regardless of if it's a commercial game, FOSS, old or new or even a total overhaul mod. >>10453 Right. I'm thinking what I'll do is make the basic changes first (splitting out into new categories, obvious/non-controversial changes and swaps discussed ITT) then we can go through each genre from the top left one at a time including going back over anything fags have said earlier in the thread and making sure the existing covers are correct (e.g. where PS2 cover has been used PS2 is the correct platform). Keep suggesting things like this in the meantime. >>10460 The entire set of RPG categories are going to be chopped and changed. >Persona A few fags have brought this up, any conclusion on which game to go for?
>>10460 Witcher 3 is so overrated we should make it a point not to include it. There's already Witcher 1 on the list. This reminds me: everyone should try out Flash's mod for the Witcher. It improves skills, makes the game harder, makes potions and oils more useful or even mandatory, and more. Just don't get stuck in that one ghost cellar without ghost oil. >NieR Automata Overrated and not that good. The gameplay is really easy. Doesn't look like the best of the best to me. Enemies are such a joke you can grind down enemies of any level with enough patience. I'm not exagerrating, I just went and destroyed those high level robots in the first open area of the game as soon as I got there, across the bridge, and then the ones all the way under the bridge. And then the robot/android boss was probably easier than Vordt of the Boreal Valley. First huge boss was epic, but easy too, on top difficulty. 2B's ass and aesthetics aside, this plays like some generic grindy gookshit. I don't think it's worth adding to the list, unless we get a Thick Thighs category.
I'll produce WIP versions with WIP clearly noted in big red text (prevents people saving them as full versions) so fags can see how things change as we go. Will also try and greentext what's changed. Will just do this now and then as I reach a natural break point in the work, first attempt in ~5 minutes. >>10464 >There's already Witcher 1 on the list. Specifically it's enhanced edition.
>>10463 when it comes to Persona you have kinda 2 categories the first two that are dark and play like a typical smt game. Then you have the last 3 in the series that are basically a fwend simulator and a dungeon crawler. I would pick 4 only because the country village is kinda comfy. >>10464 I don't know, NieR Automata felt like a breath of fresh air when I played it, also it is entertaining in it's story but yeah the enemies are not hard and it's allot of grinding if you go after sidequest to get all of the endings and other dumb stuff. But there should be a Soul Calibur game in there. Also manhunt is a great game.
>>10453 This anon knows what he's talking about
>>10463 >Persona Persona is a sub-series within the larger Shin Megami Tensei media franchise, and its mechanical identity is being a more "stylish," watered-down version of the mainline SMT games it replaced. I think the series has merit as an experience, but I don't know if I can honestly say it should be on the chart instead of a previous/more approachable SMT game like Nocturne/Strange Journey. I don't know anything detailed about the series except what other people have told me, so we'll have to get someone else's opinion. I'm ambivalent about including it at all considering how many good JRPGs there are. Also, speaking of JRPGs, I've half a mind to recommend Bug Fables over Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door. I've been playing the former obsessively for the past week, and it's basically the sequel to TTYD that Nintendo refused to make for a decade and a half. The game's combat is more focused, the side systems are less extraneous, money is more meaningful, it's harder, and the lore is good without being overbearing. Nostalgia blinders aside, Bug Fables is a better game than TTYD. It copies almost everything but the core combat mechanics straight from Paper Mario, but each mechanic is improved so immensely I can't honestly be angry. >>10466 >But there should be a Soul Calibur game in there There is.
>>10470 Wait, now that I take a closer look at the chart, I see we have Persona 3, SMT: Strange Journey, and SMT Nocturne. I think we should limit it to P3 and one SMT game, unless they're just THAT good.
>>10471 And sorry for the triple post, but I'm also going to recommend Baten Kaitos: Eternal Wings and the Lost Ocean for inclusion under the JRPG category. The battle system is totally unique among JRPGs, and is more than enough to warrant a look for someone who is a fan of the genre. I can go into more detail if someone wants more justification.
>>10470 >I can honestly say it should be on the chart instead of a previous/more approachable SMT game like Nocturne/Strange Journey. Nocturne is on there also even if I do keep confusing it with the often forgotten predecessor of Bloodrayne which I like but honestly Bloodrayne is the weakest game in that category. >>10471 As long as fags can pick one of the games to drop then sure. >>10472 It's still a JRPG right? Some of the games in JRPG are going to be moved to ARPG so make sure to account for that.
>>10473 Definitely still a JRPG. Menu-based, turn-based combat. There is some mechanical skill, but it's just a minigame or rhythm game for each attack. I should type up a more thorough explanation of the mechanics tomorrow.
Kinda wonder what about Manhunt? It is a functional game and last I checked it was pretty fun to play even if minor things with it is frustrating at times like the controls. Also Forbidden Siren ps3 is a good survival horror game.
WIP CHANGES Feel free to complain or speak up if there's any disagreement. I'm trying to make the less controversial changes first before we get into the hard choices so don't worry if it looks like I've ignored your suggestion, I'll get to it in the later passes. <Tactical FPS split off from FPS All moved games come from FPS, obviously >Ghost Recon moved to TFPS >SWAT 4 moved to TFPS SWAT 3 is technically a better SP game but 4 is better overall with the odd atmosphere it had going and the coop gameplay, I don't think they're different enough or hard enough to pick between to really justify both being on here >Rainbow Six 3 moved to TFPS >Delta Force 2 added best of the Novalogic tactical shooters though Land Warrior and Black Hawk Down are close, can swap to these if needed >Operation Flashpoint: Resistance added toss up between this and the base game but Resistance wins because of the campaign's better focus and creativity >Red Orchestra 2 moved to TFPS >Brothers in Arms: Earned in Blood moved to TFPS Overall I think a pretty solid category although fuck me are tactical FPS covers unimaginative. Some borderline games like Republic Commando fit better in FPS anyway and Soldier of Fortune II would fit in here but the first game is really better and is a straight FPS pretending to be tactical sometimes when it remembers so it also belongs in FPS. <FPS got minor rework as well (lost a line overall) >Necrovision: Lost Company removed >Crysis swapped out for Crysis Warhead >Serious Sam HD: The First Encounter swapped for Gold to avoid the TFE vs TSE skubfight HD fucks the physics a bit and other minor changes. Revolutions is apparently bugged. The burger cover for Gold is neat but I've never seen it before and can't find it without the sticker residue in picrelated >Half Life swapped for Opposing Force I expect this to cause an argument if anything here does but it's the better game ignoring historical context >Additional jiggling around of the games here to make it 'flow' better notably with AVP2-Tron-FEAR (all Monolith games) and non-gay Prey. TODO: we need to lose two games here. The weakest three are Gunslinger, Timeshift and Bioshock 2 and of those I'd suggest we drop Timeshift and Bioshock 2. Alternatively Bioshock 2 could conceivably be thrown into action adventure if fags are desperate to keep it as could Metroid Prime trilogy assuming that's truly the peak of Metroid prime over into action adventure if it's a better fit there. Also decide if we're moving Half Life 2 in from Action Adventure, leaving it there or cutting it entirely. Someone needs to pick the best marathon game or find a good cover for Aleph One, the FOSS implementation. An SVG/png logo with a transparent background is fine since I can just make it square.
>>10476 Gridless. >>10474 Right, and yeh an explanation would be good. >>10466 >>10475 Manhunt is good as long as it's the first one. There'll be a space in horror I think so it would fit in nicely there, I guess it could also go in stealth instead.
>Half-Life 2 >"best" of anything >let alone a good "adventure" game when it's a fucking linear cinematic content muncher
>>10477 >>10476 Doing RPG now. >>10478 The point of this thread is to edit the chart. I just asked fags to weigh in on HL2.
>>10476 >DRM Dirk "HD" Use an original Serious Sam game or take them off. Those phony cowards at Croteam shat all over the remakes with DRM.
>>10480 I literally just added the original games anon. Gold is TFE + TSE and some fan levels not the HD remakes. Gold Edition is HD. Gold is originals. A bigger issue than the DRM is the broken physics anyway which ruins a few secrets and rooms particularly in TSE.
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>>10476 Overload and Descent games are missing from the FPS section. I guess just Descent will suffice. No Battlefield Games? Either the original or Bad Company 2 ought to be there. I think Grim Dawn deserves a spot on the Action RPG section. Crimsonland (classic) and Assault Android Cactus should be on the RUN & GUN section. While I personally enjoyed Fighting Force and Castle Crashers, I don't think others will agree with me.
>>10476 >katawa shoujo >good
>>10485 Descent II is better if you have to pick just one in the series.
>>10485 >Overload and Descent games are missing from the FPS section. I guess just Descent will suffice. Yeh something in the series needs to go in >No Battlefield Games? Either the original or Bad Company 2 ought to be there. 2 is there under FPS though it might get swapped for 1942. >I think Grim Dawn deserves a spot on the Action RPG section. A few anons have said that. Might replace Diablo II. >Crimsonland (classic) and Assault Android Cactus should be on the RUN & GUN section. I think someone up the thread mentioned crimsonland too. >>10486 >any VN >good
>>10487 By which I mean the Descent series. Overload is a spiritual successor and addresses tons of things with the original Descent games.
Wonder Boy III: Monster World II needs to be on this list and so does Monster Would IV
>>10489 >>10487 Pick whichever is better in the genre as a whole, Descent II or Overload. Ignore the fact that one came first or is more recognisable and just go by pure gameplay. >>10490 Give the argument for it and coverart mobygames if you can't get a good resolution one elsewhere.
>>10488 >BF2 missed it, my bad
>>10491 >Monster World II Maybe the best example of a Metroidvania for the five years before Super Metroid came out. The world is open for you to travel in any direction by flying as the bird or swimming as the fish or running up walls and ceilings with the mouse. The controls for every character are good and are easy to use. The progression throughout the game is consistent in amount of gameplay, time, and difficulty. The bosses can wreck you or you can figure them out to perfect them if you want, they're fair in that way that they can always be beaten. You're never in a scenario where you're losing because of shit cpu, it is always because you fucked up. In short, this game can be 1cc'd reliably if you're capable. The map is large and has plenty of secrets. There's a weapon, armor, shoe, and shield upgrade system you use through a currency based shop. Currency is attained through battles and is regularly hidden. Equipment differs in effectiveness depending on which character is being used. This is a very solid game that was well made and well thought out. The gameplay is solid, the map is well considered and designed perfectly for the multiple different movement options you're given through multiple different characters. The enemies are never cheap, you're never put in a situation where no matter what you'd get hit or die. The difficulty is present with many situations seeing rising tensions with multiple problems that need to be addressed immediately, bosses that punish but are able to be learned and figured out, enemies that can be difficult or just annoying to try to get past but can be turned easy or entirely bypassed once better at controlling the game. Personally I think this is one of the best made 8-Bit games there is. >Monster World IV My copy has a shit battery and I haven't taken the time to either get serious with it in one sitting or replace the battery. People love it so I gave it a shout out. Different game, gameplay and all, but same world as wonder boy 3. I'm sure someone here could sing its praises well
>>10498 The nuart poster is from the remake that is literally an entire rebuild of the code that is accurate to the point that the save codes in this game work on the original game on ordinal hardware and vice versa. The remake has an added challenge room for each of the characters in the post game. That and the ability to jump one more block than the room visibly allows in the character change room, this is about as irrelevant as it gets, are the only differences I've observed between versions. The remake also has an optional new art style for everything and revamped soundtrack, but everything original is included.
I've taken the less controversial bits of these posts and tried to rework the RPG section. We can add the controversial bits and other posts from anons talking about RPGs when we come to doing each genre/category individually after these first passes. Will post it in about 20 minutes. >>9671 >>9681 >>9740 >>9978 >>9979 >>10188 If I've missed someone's post about RPGs i.e. not above or below this line in this post please tell me. >10188 >Rune Factory >Disgaea Which? Pick the best 1-2 of the series with their justifications. >>9802 >>9953 Which Divinity game? Is one clearly superior or do both go in? >>9806 Suggests II. >>9757 >Phantasy Star Unclear which one. >Pokemon Mystery Dungeon A few anons mentioned this but I'm not clear on what's the best of the series to add. >>10258 Missed this post entirely, apologies. I genuinely can't remember, assuming you mean Spiderman 2 (2004) and not Enter Electro where Enter Electro isn't even superior to the game it's a sequel of.
>>10454 >>10451 Did fags come to a conclusion on this? Is it a game or engine and if it's a game what's the name specifically. >>10460 Persona 3 is already on there. For Witcher 3 and Automata I'd agree with >>10464. >>10466 >I don't know, NieR Automata felt like a breath of fresh air when I played it, also it is entertaining in it's story but yeah the enemies are not hard and it's allot of grinding if you go after sidequest to get all of the endings and other dumb stuff. That's more about it coming out during a terrible time for AAA games than being best of the genre in its own right. Not a bad game but this is supposed to be top-tier. >But there should be a Soul Calibur game in there. There is. >>10470 >>10471 Any conclusion on cutting an SMT or are both staying? >>10472 >>10485 Also took these two into account for the RPG overhaul.
>>10502 The two posts from another thread are meant to be these two. >>9778 >>9774
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>>10502 The first one
>>10505 You would have to pick the one with the annoyingly sized cover.
>>10502 >If I've missed someone's post about RPGs You've missed the most important one (>>10164) and one of the listed posts isn't even from this thread or related to RPGs in any way. Are you alright? Take it easy and re-read the thread, we aren't being late to anything. >Which Divinity game? They're both good, but Divinity: Original Sin 2 is much more polished, especially on the combat front. >>10503 >Did fags come to a conclusion on this? I haven't started it yet. Don't worry about it, you can just add it later if it turns out to be that good.
>>10508 >You've missed the most important one (>>10164) I took that one into account don't worry. >and one of the listed posts isn't even from this thread or related to RPGs in any way. Are you alright? Take it easy and re-read the thread, we aren't being late to anything. Yeh I fucked that one up. Julay is annoying because when you click on a post's number to reply to it it always adds it to the bottom of the post not where your cursor currently is. Makes compiling large posts with many replies a pain. >They're both good, but Divinity: Original Sin 2 is much more polished, especially on the combat front. Will go with that. We're probably going to have to cut some ARPGs.
>>10503 >Did fags come to a conclusion on this? Is it a game or engine and if it's a game what's the name specifically. Flare is the engine and Flare: The Empyrean Campaign is the flagship title for that engine. Seeing as I seem to be one of the few anons that have even played it it would just be me shilling it as a good game, and I don't think one anon vouching for some random little FOSS ARPG is enough to warrant it being an essential. Maybe if some other anons pick it up and find they enjoy it then it could be.
Also I don't think there is any controversy about Metroid Prime Trilogy since it is just the three main games in the series bundled together with better controls. Only reason I could see someone not wanting it instead of an individual prime game is a preference of the GC controls for 1 and 2.
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>>10476 Can I ask why JA2 is considered TBS instead of TBT? It has just about as much emphasis on the "strategy" angle as 7.62 does. The rest of the games in there seem to fit fine but it's almost like whoever made this chart hasn't actually played JA2. And for that crime I'm terribly disappointed in you, anon.
>>10502 While Ultimate is probably the best Spider-Man game to be accessible and sticks to it's source source material, it doesn't have the acrobatics of 2, which "really makes you feel like you're Batman©"™. I can't choose above the other, I guess you'd have to put 2 up there because Ultimate "is too easy and edgy with Venom" by most people's standards Venom was the best part. Keep it up, graph-anon
>>10528 anon, you don't want to get into a shitposting war with me, I spent all of my late middle school with the shitty Java phone games.
>>10524 >Only reason I could see someone not wanting it instead of an individual prime game is a preference of the GC controls for 1 and 2. An actual reason is that with every re-release of Prime 1, Retro locked more and more doors and cut off sequence breaking exploits with the end result that the version on trilogy is much less interesting to replay. Not that Prime ever had good replayability to begin with with the snail-paced tank controls and bad platforming, but some people appreciate the freedom earlier versions of the game allowed.
>>10525 As with X-COM it's got the strategic world elements and long term logistics that push it from being a pure tactics game into strategic and there was more room in TBS than TBT. You're probably right that 7.62 should end up in the same category though, I just chucked it in the same place as Marauder because of the shared engine. Technically you'd probably classify them as operational games but there's no genre for that. >>10531 >shitposting But Spiderman 2000 is great. >>10526 There was a lot of back and forth about which Spiderman game to stick in and it came down to Ultimate, 2 and Spiderman 2000. Eventually I went for Ultimate for the more enjoyable over 2. >>10528 2000 > Enter Electro
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RPG CATEGORIES WIP OVERHAUL <WRPG Renamed to RPG and moved to the top as everything else is a subgenre. Moved a few games to other categories as noted below in those categories. >Moved Morrowind in from Open World/Sandbox RPG >Moved Alpha Protocol in from ARPG borderline I know but character skills matter at least as much as games like DX or VTM:B, maybe more, and there's plenty of weight in choices <Open World/Sandbox RPG Category removed and the games contained in it moved elsewhere <Dungeon Crawler category added >Ultima Underworld moved in from RPG >Wizardy 8 moved in from RPG >M&M World of Xeen moved in from RPG >Arx Fatalis moved in from ARPG could be replaced with Arx Libertatis if there's a cover suitable >Daggerfall added yes, it has some parts outside of dungeons, but it's really primarily a dungeon crawler and part of why Morrowind is weaker is traces of that lingering in a game that desperately wanted not to be a dungeon crawler >M&M 6 moved in from Open World/Sandbox Aren't there some nip Dungeon Crawlers that are actually quite good? Anything we can move from JRPG? <FPS-RPG VTM:B probably belongs elsewhere. Could just make the EYE image doublewide to replace it. Nothing changed yet. <Action-RPG Moved in a few games from elsewhere. We should really keep this to three rows so it's time to talk aobut cutting. >Dark cloud moved in from JRPG >All three YS games moved in from JRPG >Monster Hunter 3 moved in from JRPG >M&B Warband moved in from Open World/Sandbox RPG >Cut Demon's Souls if it's going back in we need to cut one of the similar games instead. I do think it does certain things better than Dark Souls. >Grim Dawn added could probably have outright replaced Diablo II >Devil Summoner Raidou 2 fucking nip naming thing moved in from JRPG >Gothic moved in from Open World/Sandbox RPG >Gothic II moved in from Open World/Sandbox RPG and replaced vanilla with Gold english translation of Night of the Raven is in gold though some fags prefer vanilla it's overall the superior experience. Was toying with the idea of putting this in RPG instead since it's much more of an RPG than the first game but decided against it. <JRPG Moved a few games out into Action-RPG as noted in that category above. Secret of Mana and Devil Summoner 2, at least, seem like they maybe belong in the already somewhat overful ARPG category. Or possibly we just cut Secret of Mana as one anon I think suggested. If anyone can identify any games from here that come under stock RPG rather than JRPG they can be moved. There's a good number of additional JRPGs and japanese dungeon crawlers fags have suggested that I've still got to add but I'll be away for the next ~4 hours so have this to look at in the meantime. The main RPG section seems very light if it ends up being only a single layer but I guess a lot of classic RPGs are sitting in Dungeon Crawler.
>>10536 2000 was fine, no complaints there, Enter Electro was a pain to play though. Maybe I'd need to replay it. Pokemans?
>>10537 >There's a good number of additional JRPGs and japanese dungeon crawlers fags have suggested that I've still got to add but I'll be away for the next ~4 hours so have this to look at in the meantime. The main RPG section seems very light if it ends up being only a single layer but I guess a lot of classic RPGs are sitting in Dungeon Crawler. For example Etrian Oddessy and Baten Kaitos will get added I just didn't get around to it yet. Also trying to decide if we need a Dungeon Master game, or Eye of the Beholder. Dungeon crawler will probably end up being two rows. >>10538 >2000 was fine, no complaints there, Enter Electro was a pain to play though. Maybe I'd need to replay it. No that's correct, except 2000 is more than just fine.
>>10453 This list is pretty alright, I wouldn't be opposed to that being the whole category. Although Dodonpachi loop 1 is boring and you'd probably be better off going the whole hog with Daioujou instead. >>10271 Rant spoilered My problem with it isn't that it's unconventional. The game is a classic case of many small poorly thought out things combining into a bigger mess. The whole implementation of wrongblock is garbage; you already have the bullet/graze/melee dynamic so why not drop the concept of high/low entirely instead of this jank? Jack up the chip damage on projectiles if you're still worried about people blocking too much (which is entirely a problem of the game's own creation since it doesn't have normal throws). Then there's the hitboxes, reliance on cards for things that really should be universal, and the nonsense of the weather system which everybody complained about until they resigned to just put up with it. I wouldn't mind this stuff if it was fast dumb shit but it somehow manages to be slower than a post-Melee Smash game. Then again I haven't played it in years so maybe people have made better sense of it by now.
>>10537 Move FNV and VTMB to RPG. Action in Gothic is stale as hell, they should probably be in RPG, what do you think? How about putting Japanese games in ARPG category close to each other? Or at least the weeb stuff like Xenoblade and Kingdom Hearts.
>>10537 Recettear would be a nice addition to the Management category. I consider it a sin that it wasn't on the original list.
>>10538 >Pokemans I'd say Gold/Silver Crystal a shit or HG/SS if you're a remake fag.
>>10547 PMD is about ten times better than the mainline games but if I had to recommend one of those, it would be B2/W2 (I've played them all except X/Y and Sw/Sh). G/S/C fills the region with mostly Kanto pokemon and even the gym leaders don't showcase the new ones. A terrible design decision that B2/W2 completely averts. Besides, G/S/C lacks modern essentials like the physical / special split - which means we end up wtih retardations such as Shadow Ball being physical and Gengar being fucking useless. No games that came before the physical / special split should be considered for the list.
>>10549 Yellow, got it.
>>10549 >PMD It's a completely different genre, I tried getting into it but dungeon crawling is really not my thing. >B2/W2 Heard good things about them but haven't played them yet though, the pokedex of the region being a bootleg version of Kanto's and the game being on DS turned me off though. >modern essentials like the physical / special split I never cared about any of that honestly but if you're a competitive fag god have mercy on you I would understand if you do, in that case I'd say HG/SS. G/S were the best games to me because of the huge map and the large amount of side quests that went with it, plus no hand holding like later games which I hate with a passion. I played all generations except 5 and 7.
>>10550 Generation 1 games are an ugly buggy mess and I don't see the fascination with them beyond simple nostalgiafaggotry.
>>10537 >cut Secret of Mana I know the series has a devoted following, so I'm averse to that. I don't know anything more detailed, though. >>10542 >Soku rant No, I think you're mostly right. It appeals to a very specific niche of people who like it a lot, but you're right about it being slow due to reinventing the wheel on throws. My local scene ran a bracket a couple months ago, and despite grand finals being a FT2 between two people who knew the game, it still took ages. Defence is just suffocatingly good. Card autism and weather also suck, as you'd expect in any fighting game. I totally agree that I wouldn't mind it if it were faster. >>10553 >physical/special split being competitivefaggotry Not even close. Even as a casual pokemon player who only played B/W and B2/W2 (plus enough of X to hate it), having different types of attacks makes the game much more interesting. A common criticism that I've heard from genwunners and other people who hate B2/W2 is that it's "just Gen 1 over again," and that is fair. However, it's a very good reimagining of Gen 1, so I don't have a problem with it. I personally liked B more than B2, and I think it's the better game, but the fact you're dealing with only new pokemon for the majority of the game will sour some people. >muh trash bag >muh ice cream cone >muh literal animals with too much detail >>10554 I agree.
Isn't Diablo a Rogue clone or am I retarded?
>>10553 Honestly, the split should have been there since Genwun and it's a tragedy it wasn't. It has kept many pokemon useless along with the barren movepools of Gen 1 / 2. Take Kingler, for example. Huge attack, laughable Special Attack - but all his water moves were special before the split. He would do more damage with his normal-typed moves than water. Pinsir had no Bug moves aside from Fury Cutter until Gen 4. Flareon - high Attack, shit SpAttack, no physical fire moves without the split. And the worst example Sneasel - pathetic special attack and both his STABs running off it. Gen 3 has slightly improved the movepools but the lack of split still ruins, say, Crawdaunt. In no other genre would it be accepted that most characters can't do what they are meant to do. Do try B2/W2 though. It doesn't have that much handholding (check out USUM if you want to see that), difficulty is pretty high, nice Pokemon designs, deep story, good region, etc. Not many significant flaws except the rival is shit - but N makes up for it.
>>10559 It is, but they actually one guy spend whole afternoon implementing realtime to it because everyone bugged him to do it. So its whole new genre because of it.
Oh alright thanks, never knew that.
>>10442 so is ur mum
>>10543 >Move FNV and VTMB to RPG. Will do. If I doublewide EYE that gives us a gap for a new fpsrpg if one can be found. >Action in Gothic is stale as hell, they should probably be in RPG, what do you think? The key tests for being and ARPG are player skill mattering more than character skill and very limited choices & consequences both of which Gothic passes. Maybe more of an argument to just keep II. >How about putting Japanese games in ARPG category close to each other? Or at least the weeb stuff like Xenoblade and Kingdom Hearts. Can do. I usually try to theme them a bit. >>10546 Got it.
>>10549 >>10553 I'm still unclear on which PMD fags want added. >>10556 >I know the series has a devoted following, so I'm averse to that. I don't know anything more detailed, though. The anon who recommended it did suggest a different game in the series to add. >>10559 It was designed to be one but changed to more actiony during dev.
>>10579 The first two series of PMD are fairly acessable in terms of platform, and should be the ones mostly considered, but I'd say go for Sky. Almost universally people say Sky as it's the 3rd version of its "generation". Just adds more dungeons and features compared to Time and Darkness.
>>10579 >different game in the series Oh. Fair enough then.
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>>10537 I vote for Rune to be added to hack n slash or action adventure. Personally I'd put the Witcher in RPG its just a slightly more involved KoToR.
>>10451 I played it for an hour or two, can't take any more of it. It's like a tech demo, while Exiled Kingdoms that was built on the same engine actually feels like a game. That one is alright but I'd never recommend it in any thread unrelated to Android OS.
>>10536 I suppose that makes sense, though can I ask why SPWW2 is in the "Tactics" category yet Panzer General is in the "Strategy" category? To me a Turn-based Strat vs Tact is down mostly to scale, with Jagged Alliance you're controlling one person at a time per action, whereas with SPWW2 and PG2 you're controlling squads with the scale pushing well-passed squad-level tactics to platoon, company, brigade etc. level combat. If the delineation comes down to the player being able to "create" units on-the-fly as this distinction is used for RTS vs RTT then I'd also like to know why JA2 is regarded as a TBS since the only "creating" the player does is with units that he can't control on the field, only managed loosely in the form of militia. All other units under the player's direct control are in the form of Mercenary Characters which the player has no hand in creating, only selecting. If an anon is seeking out a game to play based on the loose definitions of TBS vs TBT, it's more likely he'd be using the distinction of scale to choose a game, a person looking for a strategy game likely isn't looking for a game where you're limited to 1-2 squads of mercenaries. Full Spectrum warrior is also in an odd spot, since I'd see it more as a "shooter" game than a tactical game, much in the same vein as OFP or Brothers in Arms, it seems out of place next to the other games in its current position. You could nestle it in between tactical FPS and RTT like you've done with Bioshock. I really don't much understand why STALKER is regarded as RPG since there's utterly no character progression system, which is what literally every other game in that category suggests but maybe I'm just being too autistic about this shit. I'd also like to suggest you add Silent Storm to the TBT category, Sudden Strike and Close Combat to the RTT category, and C:DDA to the Rogue-like category - though I can totally understand if these requests are all ignored as I seem to be the only anon that's played S.S. or C.C.C:DDA is also discord-tranny trash but I like it regardless.
>>10621 I really don't much understand why STALKER is regarded as RPG since there's utterly no character progression system, You 'level up' through equipment instead of direct stat manipulation. There are weapons, artifacts, and armor suited for whatever style you play and direct upgrades for them.
>>10618 I vote against Rune. I played Rune Classic a few years ago and found it to be boring and clunky. It left an extremely negative impression, so unless Rune and Rune Classic are wildly different games, I think it should be left off the list.
>>10477 >Right, and yeh an explanation would be good. Alright, so here's the deal with Baten Kaitos and why anyone who likes JRPGs should try it. Fundamentally, the battle system revolves around cards called Magnus. Each of your characters has a deck he draws from in battle, and you draw a card whenever you play one so your hand is always full. Once the deck runs out, you spend a turn shuffling every card not in your hand back into the deck. Each card represents a weapon or an item, which are used to attack and do other things respectively (although some items can be used to attack). So, if you want to attack someone you need to draw the cards to do it. Simple enough, since most of your deck is probably weapons. If you want to heal a party member, you need to draw the card and play it on your ally. >So how do you play cards? Each of your party members and each enemy has an offensive and a defensive turn. The offensive turn is typical JRPG fare: walk up to an enemy and attack. However, all offensive turns are combo turns, and you play a minimum of three cards per attack (this increases as you level up). Each card also has a number, like a playing card, and if you play at least three cards with the same number or three cards in a straight, you get a significant damage bonus - this damage bonus is often several times the base damage of the attack cards, so it's very important to structure your hands and properly "set up" big combo turns. The wrinkle? You play these cards one at a time, in real time, as your character goes through his attacks. Play nothing, and he does a middling basic cardless attack. As I mentioned before, your hand is instantly refilled every time you play a card, so your strategy can change with every card played. A turn where you played a pair of basic cards can turn into a quick scramble once you draw a new card with a matching number. You can try to "build" an open-ended straight and hope to draw more cards that would fit the bottom or top. You can also combine cards in specific ways. There is a basic elemental system (fire vs ice, darkness vs light, time vs wind [Yeah, I don't know why time and wind are opposites, either]), and enemies and cards can both have attributes. Using a fire attack on an ice enemy will deal additional damage. Using a fire attack and a straight on an ice enemy will deal a truckload of damage. Using a fire card and an ice card in the same attack chain will cancel out each element and do nothing. You also have specific cards that will mutate in your hand if you play a specific sequence of cards before them. The protagonist can use his "trusty sword" card (I think it's something like that, anyway) as a super powerful finishing technique if he plays the right types of sword attack cards before it in a turn. The sorceress girl can cast a super powerful spell if she uses multiple types of magic in a single attack. These cards will literally change shape and design in your hand as you review them, so you need to be quick and weigh the consequences of each card, even if you weren't planning on using it when you started the attack four seconds ago. >What else? That's where the defensive turn enters: as you or your enemy are being attacked, you can use defensive cards to negate what the attacker is doing, 1:1, which removes it from the chain. If you see a fire enemy attacking you, you can use any ice item to negate any card. Armour cards negate physical attacks. This can break straights and sets, and save much more damage than just the basic attack total. Furthermore, playing cards this way counts as using on yourself, because you're "targeting" yourself with the cards, you can use healing items to heal yourself as your enemies attack you without having to spend your offensive turn targeting yourself or a party member.
>>10645 >That's it? Cards? There are tonnes of inventory gimmicks you can pull in combat, because every combat action is just using a card on something. Want to scan an enemy and know its weaknesses? Use the camera card during a successful attack, and pick up the resulting photograph from the rewards after the battle. You'll have many spare cards to choose from, so you can change each character to be weighted towards either attacking or doing dumb stuff with his personal inventory. Furthermore, almost every single inventory item has some gimmick. >can get a bamboo stick that acts as a basic attack item >carry it in your inventory long enough and it becomes a bamboo shoot, which is a healing item >can get a banana, which is a healing item >carry it long enough and it becomes a rotten banana, which inflicts poison >can get ice, which is a basic ice attack >turns into spring water, which clears status effects (I think) The best part is using battles as crafting environments and combining inventory items during attacks or defensive turns. >fire enemy is attacking me >block with ice and a banana to negate the fire damage and heal myself >after the battle, I can obtain a banana sundae >use a helmet, ice magic, fire magic, and rice in a single offensive or defensive turn >after the battle, I can obtain fried rice >because you put the rice in the helmet, filled it with water, and cooked it using the fire magic Do you see how fucking amazing this is? There are hundreds of these recipes to make new items, healing items, and weapons.
>>10621 >>10629 The japanese call tactical games with rpg elements "simulation rpgs", they use that as a blanket term. RPGs were derided from war games though.
>>10646 >Do you see how fucking amazing this is? That sounds like absolute cancer, actually. I hate crafting, but I'll try it out because the first part sounds good.
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>>9633 >8/v/ cringe ni/gg/ers can leave
Sorry about the lack of work, the non-NEET lifestyle is fucking shit. I'll try and get some done tonight finally. >>10618 Witcher is borderline yeh, you've got choices & consequences but the combat system leans a bit more towards action. Will probably move it. >>10629 STALKER is an FPS-'ARPG, tipped into that by the in-depth stats system and things like the tracking of relationship with factions and individuals. This would be much more obvious if it was in a fantasy setting instead you have artefacts as magic items, CoP has drugs that would be potions. Also the branching narrative etc though it's another one that's fairly borderline. Purely equipment based progression still counts in my book and SoC particularly has a very RPG-style layout and progression of weapons and armour that feels very tiered based on where you are in the map and story. Coming at it from another angle if you made artefacts permanent changes to stats it'd be fairly cut and dry so it seems odd to have the fact they're unequippable change things. >>10646 >>10645 Will add the game.
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>>10649 >posting cuckchan meems >not even the first decent one they've had in years I know you can do better anon. Please try harder next time.
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>>10652 >posts 4chan meme in response
Honestly, I'm still enjoying OP's autism. By now he should have a website up with includes like wikimedia. IIRC, there used to be a wikimedia server someone was using to replace https://vsrecommendedgames.fandom.com/wiki/V/%27s_Recommended_Games_Wiki As an attachment, it could just be a bittorrent, PDF, or even better: an interactive SWF or game linking all of them. But while that massive eXperimental Computing Facility file gets exponentially high, I would have been mass shipping SD cards with everything. Lin/v/x OS. /g/ CloverOS autism is pretty dope already though.
>>10621 >though can I ask why SPWW2 is in the "Tactics" category yet Panzer General is in the "Strategy" category Panzer General is another one of the games that really belongs in Operational but the longer-term focus and how much you can influence long-term is what pushes it out of tactical. Usually the defining elements between Strategy and Tactics in vidya is managing logistics, maybe tech and unit replacement and in some cases where and how battles take place this last one less relevant here. Calling in units from a limited pool doesn't necessarily tip a game from tactical into strategic but handling factories certainly does, for example. Similarly having a small number of core units you carry through linked battles like Blitzkrieg isn't really the same as managing a whole army through a campaign though that's again where things get wooly. >To me a Turn-based Strat vs Tact is down mostly to scale, with Jagged Alliance you're controlling one person at a time per action, whereas with SPWW2 and PG2 you're controlling squads with the scale pushing well-passed squad-level tactics to platoon, company, brigade etc. level combat. I tend to go with gameplay elements over scale which I agree leads to some odd situations but technically even brigade level battles are tactical just at a higher level. It's another case where you'd want an operational level. Obviously SPWW2 does also allow you to do a campaign but it's more like playing a bunch of tactical games in a row and just happening to carry XP along with your core force rather than you having a huge influence in terms of the army's logistics and long-term standing. >If the delineation comes down to the player being able to "create" units on-the-fly as this distinction is used for RTS vs RTT then I'd also like to know why JA2 is regarded as a TBS since the only "creating" the player does is with units that he can't control on the field, only managed loosely in the form of militia. All other units under the player's direct control are in the form of Mercenary Characters which the player has no hand in creating, only selecting. It's not just creating units but also handling other logistical issues and in some games how you set targets or handle tech over time. This is also why Chaos Gate falls into Tactics despite how you do at least deal with your squad over time but again you have limited ability to influence other aspects. >If an anon is seeking out a game to play based on the loose definitions of TBS vs TBT, it's more likely he'd be using the distinction of scale to choose a game, a person looking for a strategy game likely isn't looking for a game where you're limited to 1-2 squads of mercenaries. The problem then is games like original X-COM/UFO which clearly have a bit more going on that just pure tactical fights over and over and play differently to games like Chaos Gate that have similar tactical battles but lack the strategic campaign elements. JA2's battles are certainly tactical as well. >Full Spectrum warrior is also in an odd spot, since I'd see it more as a "shooter" game than a tactical game, much in the same vein as OFP or Brothers in Arms, it seems out of place next to the other games in its current position. Full Spectrum Warrior never involves the player themselves directly shooting technically you sort of fire the M203 and the other grenades I guess but ignoring that so it's not an FPS. Good game though which is why I added it. >You could nestle it in between tactical FPS and RTT like you've done with Bioshock. That's just being stored there temporarily because the category has two games of overflow and something needs cut. I see your point though, the rule of thumb I like to use with genre categorisation is to first try and be consistent but also to ensure that if someone liked one game in the genre he'd probably like another so we could move some games around to account for that. I don't think going as far as adding an operational level is a good idea unless fags really want that level of granularity. 1/2
>I really don't much understand why STALKER is regarded as RPG since there's utterly no character progression system, which is what literally every other game in that category suggests but maybe I'm just being too autistic about this shit. See the other post about this. I am considering renaming FPS-RPG to Hybrid RPG like that other anon suggested which would allow for games like M&B Warband which are non-FPS genre hybrids and also explain why both FPS-RPG and FPS-ARPG are in there. The downside is it's a lot less clear at first glance what that means. I could also rename the category to FPS-RPG/FPS-ARPG or FPS-RPG/ARPG if that's clearer as EYE is also really an ARPG. >I'd also like to suggest you add Silent Storm to the TBT category, Sudden Strike and Close Combat to the RTT category, Silent Storm is fun but the Panzerkleins kind of fuck the end game up. I guess they can be modded though. Close Combat is in under Sim I added it. Sudden Strike is probably better than Blitzkrieg so I'll add that Blitzkrieg 2 is actually better than Blitzkrieg in my opinion though I still prefer the first game like everyone else for some odd reason. >and C:DDA to the Rogue-like category >C:DDA is also discord-tranny trash but I like it regardless. C:DDA tends to get less fun with every new patch. It'd be hard to pin it to a version so I'd stick it under the 'active dev/early access' rule and hope someone forks it to actually be fun and non-furry or bring up adding plain old Cataclysm but that's skub. 2/2 >>10656 Websites are gay and would give me almost unilateral control over the contents. As long as I keep posting the XCFs anyone else can take over.
>>10654 posts homosexuality in response to 4cuck memes that were in response to 4cuck memes that were in response to homosexual op. now, is this | | epic?
>>10654 It's okay anon, lots of people can't read.
>>10658 >>10621 >Close Combat Disregard, it's not under Sim because that's Combat Mission. I always get their names mixed up despite the fact I've played a ton of Combat Mission and A Bridge too Far. No expert on Close Combat though so pick whichever game is best anthology fine if you can't and it includes a lot of good ones and I'll add it. Seriously it just seems like the names fit better the other way around.
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>>10658 >Websites are gay and would give me almost unilateral control over the contents. As long as I keep posting the XCFs anyone else can take over Do you not know how download websites, and carry on a project? E.g. attached. If anyone here wanted to really keep and update essentially a wiki project, they can, instead of embedding .XCF malware across. Did you know you can also torrentfy your entire website as well, making truly decentralized?
Huh, it ate that attachment. Let me try again.
>>10656 >Honestly, I'm still enjoying OP's autism. This. Who gives a shit about the chart I'm here for the autistic genre discussion. I havent had this much fun since the ASSFAGGOTS are babbys first RTS argument in the RTS thread.
Death to Half Life 2 and where is ARMA?
>>10665 Yeah, and OP can decentralize it for us on his website, sprinkle in IPFS for extra autism. Books can be written about :talk all day long. Apparently plebbit had it all along: http://alltimevrecommendations.wikidot.com/start >page revision: 88, last edited: 25 Nov 2018, 11:40 (408 days ago) smh, all that hard work.
>>10667 Moving anything off imageboards and into something else always ends up as a circlejerk because most anons dont bother checking it out. If op keeps doing these threads and just used it as a store thats ok though.
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Ok, this is epic: https://github.com/rishooty/vrec-dat-filter Also, dunno if Stormwatch is a robot or actually a human: https://vsrecommendedgames.miraheze.org/wiki/Main_Page
>>10668 So, like Share Threads, that never had that problem, or RAD nights? You know it can be a simple as a git repository, with an anonymous captch'ed account, right?
>>10671 Share thread was actually run by a private circlejerk chat full of furries. Gamenights literally had a standing policy against outside chat for this exact reason. Also tf2v.
>>10671 >a git repository Unrelated rant but the use of git as source control software by default was and is retarded. It was designed for a very specific use case and unless you're also a highly decentralised and massively complex FOSS project you don't need 3/4 of its features at the cost of its opaqueness. There are other decentralised source control options which do what everyone else needs including basically any company with closed source projects. Don't even get me started on retards saying things similar to "github is down so we can't do any work" showing that they fundamentally have no understanding of the piece of software they picked just based on its popularity and provenance. However I will allow that nowadays it's almost impossible to avoid using git since everything else has been abandoned or nearly abandoned with a few exceptions like bzr/breezy which limps along with Canonical support. Particularly in a workplace context you'll look retarded for suggesting anything against the grain. The general trend of putting too much stock on whatever piece of software or tech is currently in fashion or used by xyz big name company with a use case entirely different to yours instead of fags sitting down and properly considering their spec and use cases is what gives us excessive centralisation and then lets issues like the CoC come in and corrupt that one source. Not accusing you of any of this though. For one thing you actually said git repository instead of github repository so you clearly have some understanding unless you meant github in which case you're just as retarded as anyone else. Never work in tech start-ups. The pay is good but the stupidity of your coworkers crushes your soul and knowing you exist only to piss away investor's money is depressing.
>>10671 >or RAD nights? They had this problem a little bit towards the end and the main organiser has said if he could go back he'd try and enforce anonymous names on everyone hostfags included from the start. I helped hostfag a few times and it was a known issue that they'd painted themselves into a corner with names that carried across more than one night because then fags would see something as less 'official' if certain people didn't show up. As >>10675 says though the stance against any sort of Discord or IRC certainly helped it remain open compared to most other /v/ projects.
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>>10675 Then I guess you're completely right, Julay doesn't and will never have a circlejerk of it's own, like infinitechan never was. >>10676 Yeah, I vividly recall Linus Torvalds' decision to hack up together git instead of cloning BitBucket. The point is, all of this can easily be a giant repo of markdown text files with links to covers, maybe even gameplay. I know git is strictly for text files, but i can't ask everyone to have a PlasticSCM or Rational ClearCase license to just host images and video. >Never work in tech start-ups. The pay is good but the stupidity of your coworkers crushes your soul and knowing you exist only to piss away investor's money is depressing Which? I'm highly interested in joining a succeeding venture because my goals align. I know how the market works, so it doesn't bother me to work with retards. >>10677 How do you force anonymity on different IP addresses? You could setup nameless IRC, but at one point a server host will know your IPs, even if you VLAN your connections. I don't think any of you are autistic enough to try yggdrasil, anonet, or lokinet just for a simple gaming night. Circlejerks can easily be de-escalated with risks involved, but I don't think people want to give up some privileges for a game night. OP here wants an image chart, which I find hilarious, and a simple shockwave file is perfect for achieving his portable goal.
Add Far Cry 2 and Blood Dragon. They're great.
>>10656 >>10662 >>10664 >>10667 >>10671 >dude, why have not stopped doing and moved?????? Kill yourself, you fucking ESL.
>>10685 >Blood Dragon Is it good? It was so short I couldn't even tell if I liked it.
>>10680 >Which? I'm highly interested in joining a succeeding venture because my goals align. I know how the market works, so it doesn't bother me to work with retards. Any in London or the South. Depressing place to live too.
>>10685 Far Cry 2 is a boredom simulator with good atmosphere. Blood Dragon is fine but overrated because of when it came out being the shittiest period for shooters. >>10680 Anonymity in terms of names. Ideas discussed revolved around an R9K-style uniqueness requirement based on names from the logs of past games that would assign you anon or something if it had been used before or just forced everyone to anon with a number afterwards. Social anonymity rather than opsec.
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>>10689 You be the judge. >>10692 FC2 is one of the most /k/ games ever made barring some gun inconsistencies. A man with his rifle in a hostile place that might as well be Zimbabwe doing mercenary work for diamonds and trusting no-one. It's basically STALKER Africa Edition. Driving around may be boring but it's part of the deal since the game is about isolation. Dylan's mod makes it even better. >when it came out being the shittiest period for shooters. It had a theme seldom any shooter has had before, that being 80's action movies with a heavy coat of lasergrid. Not to mention it took all the shitty parts of FC3 away and kept the fun ones in.
>>10694 >most /k/ games ever made barring some gun inconsistencies Then it's not very /k/ then. I don't know about mods but the base game has a crap stealth aspect, some negroes take up to 15 shots to get down, not cool car advertisement, absurd respawn rates in checkpoints due to unfinished territorial takedown feature, bugged rockets. I don't know, it's very flawed but it has its charm.
>>10694 FC2's setting and atmosphere are neat but the gameplay is utter shit. Gameplay is king.
>>10696 >>10697 It is flawed, but it does things that only STALKER ever did while being an FPS. The stealth is funnily enough kind of realistic since people in real life aren't as stupidly blind as they are in so many stealth games out there. Even then, you can get the drop on enemies with a silenced shotgun. If you snipe enemies from afar with a dart rifle, they'll take cover without shooting back because they can't tell where you are, either. >Bugged rockets If you mean rockets dropping on the ground and spinning wildly until they explode or bounce off the ground, that's actually intended. Since gun deterioration is an active mechanic in the game, RPGs with a damaged propulsion/fuze tip aren't out of the realm of possibility. The first time I picked up an RPG in the middle of a firefight and launched it, it looked rusty and overused, and it did exactly that. It was funny, but also exciting to be put in such a situation that was straight out of an odd african/middle eastern grunt war story. Really drove home the point that the shithole the game takes place in spared no weapon.
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>FC2 is one of the most /k/ games ever made barring some gun inconsistencies. Will have to check it out sometime
>>10698 >The stealth is funnily enough kind of realistic since people in real life aren't as stupidly blind as they are in so many stealth games out there. It's much worse because if the niggers saw me burning a tree and hiding behind a rock on the other side, they shouldn't shoot at me until the fire hurts one of them when it propagates, they should from the get-go. It's nonexistent and serves as a diamond-scam to get the stealth vest and supressed pistols. It's not that they aren't blind, they are dumb as rocks, even the mercenaries before we go down that they are niggers. >they'll take cover without shooting back because they can't tell where you are, either. Bullshit, at least from my part in the base game. Might've been patched so i cannot call you on that. >rockets dropping on the ground and spinning wildly until they explode or bounce off the ground, that's actually intended. You are so full of crap buddy, unless you mean propulsion being damaged, if so i actually meant rockets clipping in rocks or people and then exploding or bugging into the void. Rockets malfunctioning is okay, grenades too because some don't explode at all. Having an AKM explode after shooting 90 rounds is complete utter bullshit thou.
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>>10702 >they shouldn't shoot at me until the fire hurts one of them when it propagates, they should from the get-go They do investigate sounds from explosions and fire. >Bullshit Pardon the eceleb. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCeEvQ68jY8 >You're so full of crap I literally just asked what you mean by "glitched" rockets, and only now did you specify it. Glitching into rocks I can understand, but defective rockets dropping and spinning until explosion are part of the game. That's all I said. >Having an AKM explode after shooting 90 rounds is complete utter bullshit thou. They can if they shoot shitty ammo with shitty gunpowder for too long or get too much dirt in the chamber without maintenance, as will any other firearm. They're not impervious to jamming, contrary to what most people believe. Because you know, it's Africa of all places.
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>>10703 >sits 20 meters away from the niggers >shoots without a silencer >twice >it takes them half a minute to find him
>>10691 Ah yah, nvm, thought you meant something like in silicone valley or the likes. Lot of good jobs are in Germany. >>10692 Well good luck attempting it.
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I haven't been able to rid myself of games as a bad habit so might as well get closer to them as a hobby. I want to nominate Heart of Darkness (1998) in 2D platformer since it seems to be the chart's catch-all that supports it: it's not a pure platformer, it has adventure/puzzle into it and a lot of one hit kills contextual enemies and dangers. But wait a sec chief, I haven't checked most of the genre or even the more relevant ones to its nature. So I ask which ones to play and compare it to, I see >Earthworm Jim(1994) >Rayman (1998) >Oddworld (1997) >Another World (original or anniversary?) I'm gonna cry blood with Rayman aren't I?
I am withdrawing my "nomination" of Mary Skelter for Dungeon Crawler inclusion. Now that I'm almost at the end, it has way too many core flaws. I can elaborate if needed. I'm only finishing it to see the story, which keeps you at the edge of your seat.
>>10712 nah ewj is the hardest on that list
>>10725 On the list you posted* Also play the SEGA CD version of EWJ
>>10497 >>10498 I have uploaded the PC version of the rebuilt Monster World II (Wonder Boy III) to the vola in the share thread. It will be up for 4 days. Like previously mentioned this rebuild is identical to the original game, and the new art and sound are both entirely optional. Also present is the original OST with the added FM capabilities that were present in the original cartridge but not accessible through any unmodded console outside of Japan, and it didn't release in Japan on that hardware so officially this was the first release to have the FM sound and use it. I mention this not to say this is the version that should be included, but so anyone can be a little more familiar with the options present to them and what significance, if any, those options have. Some claim the TurboGrafx-16 version is the superior version, with good reason. At the time it was the best looking and sounding (unmodded) version. Unfortunately I do not have a ROM of this file but a no-intro set for the TG16 should be easy to find for anyone interested in comparing versions.
>>10717 Mary Skelter looks like your typical Idea Factory budget shit from even a glance of extended gameplay, I was kind of upset since the trailer made it look better than it was.
>2D Platformers: Castlevania Whilst the atmosphere and soundtrack are stellar. I think the controls are a bit clunky and stiff. I suggest swapping it for Batman. It also has amazing an atmosphere and an awesome soundtrack. But the controls are delight to play with. The walljumping is probably the best out of any game.
>>10712 Rayman and Oddworld aren't that hard relative to the rest of the genre but are compared to casual shit.
Will post a WIP chart in an hour or so. >>10685 >Far Cry 2 Too flawed to go on the chart. If they'd taken the good ideas they had and gone for a limited open world like SoC or even better a Crysis or FC1 style set of linear but open missions it might have worked but as it is it's a bunch of shitty driving and boring gunfights with the occasional neat mission popping out. >>10694 >FC2 is one of the most /k/ games ever made barring some gun inconsistencies. The IMFDB page was funny, at least. >>10703 >They can if they shoot shitty ammo with shitty gunpowder for too long or get too much dirt in the chamber without maintenance, as will any other firearm. They're not impervious to jamming, contrary to what most people believe. Because you know, it's Africa of all places. It's way more likely to jam than explode short of using deliberately spiked ammo. >>10666 >and where is ARMA? Opflash is better.
>>10759 >>10685 Forgot >Blood Dragon It's pretty good but it feels like a mod built on another game because it is really rather than a complete game which makes it hard to justify it as a best of the best inclusion. Also I'll admit to never having played any of the mods for FC2 but they'd have to be pretty massive changes to fix the game's fundamental flaws.
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>>10537 Add Odin Sphere: Leifthrasir to the ARPG section, that game's a masterpiece. >>10675 What private circlejerk? Was it an IRC channel or something? >>10649 FUCK OFF BACK TO CUCKCHAN God I hate how Wojak and Pepe edits degenerated. A few years from now we will see this cancer as we do rage faces now. >>10658 Even if C:DDA is run by Discord trannies as you claim, I don't think it should be that much of an issue given that the game is free and open source software. Surely it's not to difficult to reverse shitty balancing decisions as one sees fit?
Asking this early so there's no confusion when time comes - on what page should another thread be made?
>>10767 I'd say to do it before it falls too far down so we keep getting fag's opinions. No idea what the actual rule is though or if it's ever been defined. I'll archive this thread once we have a new one.
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RPG WIP TWO Also I did Horror quickly. Limited changes because I've only got a short time until I'm out the door again so there's still more to do with RPG yet. <Horror >Added Clive Barker's Undying >Added Manhunt Will do the category in more detail later. We still should cut a Silent Hill if possible. <RPG >Moved VTM:B in from FPS-RPG <FPS-RPG Renamed to FPS-RPG/APRG to cover Stalker and EYE. Either I'll make EYE a doubelwide to fill the gap or we can rename it to Hybrid-RPG and stick something like M&B Warband in here. <JRPG >Added Baten Kaitos >Added Phantasy Star <Dungeon Crawler We could rename this to Blobbers to cause another autistic argument about genre definitions widen the category maybe. If we do that I'd go with a wide definition that allows games like Arkania in. If we did this though a few games like Ultima underworld and Arx Fatalis would need to move back to RPG or ARPG but a few games like Betrayal at Krondor might be able to move down. Bear in mind right now we have games that play wildly differently in the same category and by the really lose definition of crawling in a dungeon we're going with even Diablo could be stuck in here. >Added Etrian Odyssey III box isn't the easiest to read but I couldn't find a better one >Added Stranger of Sword City: Revisited >Added Realms of Arkania: Star Trail I've noticed we're pretty lacking Gold Box RPGs which I'll look at tonight. Pool of Radiance seems like a good call. Also we have Dungeon Master and EotB to consider. Maybe Lands of Lore too, possibly Dark Sun. >>9740 >I'd rather have Seiken Densetsu 3 in there, Which cover? The nip one isn't so useful for non-nips to read but I can't seem to work out which English cover Trials of Mana to use.
>>10773 Also if we flip Dungeon Crawler to Blobber I'm pretty confident we could put RPG back to being only a single row once games were moved around to account for it. Right now the entire RPG genre is massive so it'd help with that. Still think we should cut Diablo II for Grim Dawn though.
>>10773 I'm ok with blobber but only if you don't mix it up with other classic rpgs. >>10767 Let it go for a few days I think.
>>10773 Why don't you move FNV to RPG? I don't think there's any point in renaming FPS-RPG to "FPS-RPG/ARPG". Who cares? Sounds overdesigned too. Might as well just name it Hybrid RPG for any future additions, if anything. >Added Clive Barker's Undying >Horror It might spook a 5-year-old, I guess. I would describe it as an Action Adventure or FPS with magic. It's as much of a horror as RTCW, and that one is in FPS.
>Blobber Literally who? This is almost the first time I hear this word. What's wrong with Dungeon Crawler? You crawl in dungeons — perfect description. The only Blobber I know is that Joe Blobbers that shills Star Citizen all over the internet day in and day out for years.
>>10732 You know, the game is always recommended in all the lists, praised on forums etc so I decided to play it. It starts off pretty impressive until you realize multi-hit moves are utterly overpowered. And thanks to that, all all the other flaws are revealed.
>>10779 Blobber means 'whole party that moves as a blob' with a bit of controversy around if they just need to move as a blob or if they have to fight as one too. It covers most games you'd see in Dungeon Crawler currently. >What's wrong with Dungeon Crawler? You crawl in dungeons — perfect description. That allows for Arx Fatalis, Ultima Underworld, Wizardy 8 and technically Diablo to all be in the same genre despite playing radically differently whereas some games in RPG play more like them but just don't take place in a dungeon. The issue is classifying based on setting rather than gameplay. Just a thought though, if fags prefer Dungeon Crawler I'll keep it that way around but then why isn't Diablo in there?. >>10778 >Why don't you move FNV to RPG? It's borderline and then I'd have to find another non-shit FPS-RPG to fill a slot. I guess if we go the Hybrid RPG route I could move M&B Warband in on the logic of it sort of being a strategic game or maybe Dark Cloud if the definition is really stretched. I'll move NV though and we can leave the gap. >It might spook a 5-year-old, I guess. I would describe it as an Action Adventure or FPS with magic. Doesn't the lack of spookyness just make it a horror game with bad horror? I suppose then it's better classified under what it does well, so FPS makes more sense. F.E.A.R. also ends up as an FPS after all its horror works sometimes if you have good headphones and haven't played it enough to see through to the strings behind it but that's hit or miss depending who's playing it and what they've played before. >It's as much of a horror as RTCW, and that one is in FPS. Unlike RTCW it clearly intends to have actual horror elements they're just not hugely successful. Either way I'll move it to FPS.
>>10773 I like renaming FPS-RPG to Hybrid RPG. FPS implies that it's a dedicated shooter, but STALKER and EYE are the only games there which feature FPS gameplay where your skill matters more than stats. >>10779 I concur. The only references to "blobber" in this thread are chart-anon suggesting we change it, which is baffling.
>>10802 >why isn't diablo a dungeon crawler? It could probably fit in either dungeon crawler or ARPG. The Action is pretty slow and plodding, so if you want to put it dungeon crawler then you can.
>>10803 >I concur. The only references to "blobber" in this thread are chart-anon suggesting we change it, which is baffling. I still don't think Dungeon Crawler is a particularly sensible definition, you could have two games with identical gameplay where the only difference is one is in a dungeon and the other isn't and then. Blobber is itself poorly defined and I think an (((RPGcodex))) term originally too which is even worse so fair enough and it's the board's chart so I'll go with what fags prefer. >>10804 Works for me. At least that way things are consistent. Now we need a decision on if Grim Dawn is sufficiently superior to render Diablo II's inclusion unnecessary.
>>10803 >I like renaming FPS-RPG to Hybrid RPG. FPS implies that it's a dedicated shooter, but STALKER and EYE are the only games there which feature FPS gameplay where your skill matters more than stats. Also I'll do this if nobody objects. Now what games are we moving in to the now empty slots? We need at least one and maybe two. Warband, Dark Cloud, maybe Devil Summoner?
>>10807 >Dark Cloud That's a JRPG if I've ever seen one. >Devil Summoner Same here. >Warband I suppose you could, if you can't find something else. I just noticed there's Catherine on the list (Puzzle). Is it actually a good puzzle or did weebs get it on the list because of 2D trannies?
Moving Diablo to dungeon crawler, Warband to Hybrid, cutting Diablo II in favour of Grim Dawn and cutting one of the three YS games would leave us only three games away from removing an entire row of action-rpg. We could probably remove Gothic in favour of Gothic 2 as well, maybe Witcher 1 to RPG? Then decide if Kingdom Hearts is worth actually keeping in on its own merits and possibly Risen and we're done. >>10808 I'll use Warband then. That'll still leave us with another slot though. I mean they don't all necessarily have to be filled. >I just noticed there's Catherine on the list (Puzzle). Is it actually a good puzzle or did weebs get it on the list because of 2D trannies? Not sure, it was a long time ago. It did seem to have some actual puzzle gameplay though. It apparently got a windows rerelease early last year so it should be possible to check. Seems like it might have added some pretty significant story elements though. Apparently it also added a journo-friendly difficulty with no actual possibility of losing.
>>10809 >We could probably remove Gothic in favour of Gothic 2 as well Remembering that Gothic 2 on the chart is gold which is Gothic 2 + NotR.
Will make a new thread when the chart is ready to post again.
>>10808 >Catherine Trannies hate Catherine because one of the side characters is a tranny and the nips didn't suck his dick. It's a good puzzle game with a good aesthetic, even if the story is the same BUWUWGHWUWGH GOOOOOOOD vs BARARARARAABAB EVIIIIIILLLLLLLLL that plagued the seventh gen. I don't know exactly what differences there are between Catherine and Catherine: Full Body, aside from some minor priority differences that tourneyfags didn't like.
>>10809 >only three games away from removing an entire row Dark Cloud and Devil Summoner can go into JRPG. Or did you already do that? >remove Gothic I don't see why not, one Gothic is enough. >maybe Witcher 1 to RPG I think it's better off in Action. Most of the story variation comes from picking one of three sides, and it has more action than most RPGs. >Risen One Gothic is enough. >if Kingdom Hearts is worth actually keeping I'd remove it or move it to JRPG, but I'm biased on this one. It makes me cringe hard.
>>10812 >I don't know exactly what differences there are between Catherine and Catherine: Full Body, aside from some minor priority differences that tourneyfags didn't like. Apparently some new character called Rin. I only skimmed the details.
>>10813 >Dark Cloud and Devil Summoner can go into JRPG. Or did you already do that? They just came out of JRPG for being ARPGs made by nips rather than JRPGs. Chart is working on JRPG being a genre roughly speaking one major requirement is it needs to be menu driven, particularly in combat instead of geographical. >I don't see why not, one Gothic is enough. Yeh. Might cause some debate but then Gothic vs Gothic 2 vs Gothic 2 gold/NotR is a big argument as is. >I think it's better off in Action. Most of the story variation comes from picking one of three sides, and it has more action than most RPGs. The deciding factor was supposed to be player skill overriding character skill, but then the combat does that for Witcher. I'll leave it in ARPG. >One Gothic is enough. Right. With Risen it's three similar games too so one of the three has to go minimum. >I'd remove it or move it to JRPG, but I'm biased on this one. It makes me cringe hard. It's definitely an ARPG rather than a JRPG the question is if it's actually any good. Personal opinion here is that it's pretty average once you cut through the autistic crossover angle, I'm not bothered if it goes.
>>10815 If you're adding a JRPG category I'd suggest Crono-Cross to go in there if it's not already because it's nearly the perfect game for that genre. Though maybe my taste's are off because I've never enjoyed Final Fantasy games but really liked Chrono-Trigger, Crono-Cross and Mario RPG.
>>10816 Chrono Trigger and SMRPG are already on the chart. Chrono Cross is generally regarded as a lacklustre sequel, so I'm surprised you liked it. Why should it go on the chart?
>>10773 so far it's pretty good but if I had to add or remove anything >action adventure GUN McGee's Alice >adventure myst 2: riven the neverhood full throttle I'd also suggest yume nikki but I'm not sure if other anons would agree to include it >2d platformers castlevania rondo of blood possibly switch another world with flashback >music move jet set radio to 3d platformer and add gitaroo man instead >survival horror parasite eve clock tower ps1 >fps tribes 2, as I said before I dont know if anons would agree remove bioshock 2 and timeshift >rpg ultima 4 and 7, I dont know why underworld is here but not 4 and 7 shadowrun snes >blobbers if it's possible then change wizardry 8 into something that shows wiz 6,7 and 8, since playing through them in order is amazing eye of the beholder trilogy, dark sun and pool of radiance I want to hear you guys opinions before moving on the other genres
>>10819 I liked it for the story and the somewhat unique combat system involving changing the "field" to increase/decrease power levels for the attacks/spells. I also liked the art style and clarified that my taste may be off due to legitimately not enjoying playing any final fantasy game but enjoying CT/CC. Just disregard my baka ass.
>>10832 >add McGee's Alice >add yume nikki <remove timeshift I strongly agree with that. >remove bioshock 2 First Bioshock isn't on the list, is it? Why get rid of it? I like it. > why underworld is here but not 4 and 7 This question makes no sense, the gameplay is very different. Besides, I think we can live without mammoth shit and the game with perspective so bad it's going to haunt /v/ forever. Ask yourself whether they're better than what's already on the list.
>>10835 >First Bioshock isn't on the list, is it? Why get rid of it? I like it. because OP asked to remove two fps games from the list, why add bioshock 1 anyways when 2 and both system shocks are better? >This question makes no sense, the gameplay is very different. Besides, I think we can live without mammoth shit and the game with perspective so bad it's going to haunt /v/ forever. Ask yourself whether they're better than what's already on the list. it's a typo, I just wanted to ask why ultima underworld is in the list but not 4 and 7. Yes I know the gameplay is different that's why I listed rpg instead of dungeon crawler.
>>10838 >why add bioshock 1 anyways I was talking about Bioshock as a whole. I think one of the two games should be on the list. >Yes I know the gameplay is different that's why I listed rpg instead of dungeon crawler. No, I meant the gameplay between Underworld and 4 or 7 is different.
>>10839 >I was talking about Bioshock as a whole. I think one of the two games should be on the list. I disagree, there's no real need to if you have both system shock, not to devalue bioshock 2 though because it's pretty good, but I would never call it the best of the best >No, I meant the gameplay between Underworld and 4 or 7 is different. I know that anon
Should we not have Dead Space in horror? >>10832 >GUN I don't think it holds up as well as fags remember. It's an open world game with very little to do in it and the combat feels floaty. Neat game but not something I'd say is the peak of action adventure. I used to think it was amazing but replayed it recently, which is when I noticed. >McGee's Alice Will add. Technically isn't it also a horror game? Actually on that note I'm going to change Survival Horror's name to Horror so it could include psychological horror also. >myst 2: riven >the neverhood >full throttle Will look at again. I think I cut Full Throttle original for being a weaker game compared to others there. >I'd also suggest yume nikki but I'm not sure if other anons would agree to include it Good idea. Just have to find a cover for it. >castlevania rondo of blood >possibly switch another world with flashback Noted. >move jet set radio to 3d platformer and add gitaroo man instead Going to move it definetly. >parasite eve >clock tower ps1 I forgot Parasite Eve. >tribes 2, as I said before I dont know if anons would agree >remove bioshock 2 and timeshift Already done. >eye of the beholder trilogy, dark sun and pool of radiance Yeh I was working on getting all three of these in already. Pool or Radiance is pretty much the peak of Gold Box anyway. >>10839 >>10838 >>10835 Ultima 4 and/or 7 could fit into RPG. Question is if we need both.
>>10861 >McGee's Alice >Technically isn't it also a horror game? It's an action-adventure both officially and in practice. >Ultima 4 and/or 7 could fit into RPG. Question is if we need both. I think the question should if we need either of them. Let's make this clear first: is this list supposed to be the best of the best, or the best of the games that were the best at their prime time? If it's the former, you should check twice before adding any DOS games. I don't think Ultima 4 and 7 hold up against the stuff made closer to the end or start of a millenium. Games were universally getting better before they started regressing.
> the best of the games that were the best at their prime time Kinda messed up, but you get what I'm saying.
>>10863 >Let's make this clear first: is this list supposed to be the best of the best, or the best of the games that were the best at their prime time? Quality overall so best of the best, not influence or historical importance. >If it's the former, you should check twice before adding any DOS games. I don't think Ultima 4 and 7 hold up against the stuff made closer to the end or start of a millenium. Games were universally getting better before they started regressing. There are exceptions to that, particularly for RPGs and genres that originated in arcades. Obviously it's difficult to pick apart age and nostalgia from actual quality.
New thread and WIP chart in ~15 minutes.
New thread >>10880

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