You guys exaggerate the power needs of this thing really. Raspberry pi and servo motors are like around 5 volts for the mini ones ones which is like 1 lithium battery and 1 regular battery. The big motors is 12 volts each maybe. 3 lithium batteries each and so on. It's not a big deal. We'll see how many batteries are needed in the end. >But they won't last long Doesn't matter it's supposed to be a house bot for the most part.

>>24709 Well-played. :DDD >>24711 >You guys exaggerate the power needs of this thing really. I'm not really trying to debate you here Anon -- believe me, I'd be ecstatic if you can prove us all wrong -- but I think the reality of this situation is that we are not only not exaggerating the power requirements... we're actually low-balling them out of optimistic hope! :^) Our optimism is based on the efforts to minimize the mass of everything. By doing this we significantly reduce the so-called 'thrown-weight' (and therefore the inertial moments) of the 'levers' that constitute a robowaifu's arms, legs, &tc. Dear Kibo-chan (>>24608), and Poppy (>>24531) are somewhat reasonable approaches today specifically because they are smol (that is, short) and lightweight. This is just the same approach I mean to take advantage of for Sumomo-chan (>>14409) also. Well and good, such as they are (ie, headpat daughterus). But once we begin scaling robowaifu designs up to life-sized dimensions (145cm+) then strange things begin happening with the physics involved. This phenomenon is known as the Square-Cube Law [1], and has been well-understood for centuries. >tl;dr The power (Amps, not Volts) required to make a fully-loaded, realworld robowaifu move around, all day erry day, is probably more than you may think r/n Anon. But together I hope we'll all find a way to greatly reduce this requirement. May God give us good success with that, and every other one of the many dozens of things that all need to be solved here! Cheers. :^) 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square%E2%80%93cube_law >=== -patch crosslinks -prose edit

>>24714 Oh no you're right. Bard says a high torque 12v motor might require a 100 ah battery which are quiet different... Something like this per big motor maybe. I don't like relying on bard though, it often times gives the wrong answer. If someone here knows how many ah is required to power a high torque 12 volts motor for say 6 hours that'd be great and again I got the 12 volts estimate from bard too so...

>>24714 >we're actually low-balling them out of optimistic hope! :^) I would have to agree. Even if our wildest dreams about the ability of AI to become faster (lees power needed) you're still going to need a reasonably fast processor to have a life like waifu. That's what I'm measuring. Not something that can walk a few feet and lay around. Even if it lays around, if you want to talk to it or have it pay attention...fast mobile processors are running at 35-40 Watts and reasonable desktops at 80-150 watts. It's a lot of power. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_CPU_power_dissipation_figures

>>24717 >how many ah is required to power a high torque 12 volts motor for say 6 hours that'd be great and again I got the 12 volts estimate from bard too so... There are formulas for that you can find on the web and probably in this thread. It depends on what you mean by "high torque 12 volts motor". Also, it depends on the workload. Six hours with barely any load, just changing positions on a coach, is not the same as her walking around using it. It's a mistake to assume you could build a waifu using that for six freaking hours under full load. My target is 20-30 minutes under full load, maybe just 10-15 minutes. Of course sitting around or doing less would make the power last much longer. Related: >>23782 >>23781

>>24717 just look up the wattage of the engine eg. a 12v 240w engine requires 20a (w=va) per hour if the battery is 12v 100ah it would last 5h ( ah/a )

>>24705 >>So batteries are THE BIGGEST cost driver, I believe. Actually, it's the actuators. By far. We are all probably looking at ~US$5K+ I agree if you say,"let's buy a bunch of motors off the shelf and run our waifu with it right now", but looking at the material cost and building them ourselves I think we can go much lower. Way lower. Vastly lower. I do not have this all worked out but I have some ideas. I think it will be a good while before I can flesh them out. It will take test. One idea I had is for water hydraulics. Now I have blasted hydraulics to death but...there may be a way to get around the high cost of the control valves. Maybe. My ideas right now are so incomplete that it would futile to talk about it. I would get a ton of questions...I can not answer. If you notice I have some whacked ideas and may be wrong but I can usually answer criticisms when I post my ideas. There is some material, logical thought behind them. Maybe some, or a lot, of them are not actionable but I can usually make a case for what I think up. I'm not there yet on actuators yet but I'm thinking on it. The key is the material cost of these things is way lower than what they are selling them for. We must think a better way to arrange them to lower cost. > I don't think there are any other reasonable alternatives to us for mobile power contained within our robowaifu's bodies than batteries. Yes I see that. The ideas for lower cost power mostly reside with the idea that you could get a waifu for $2,000-3,000 dollars. You can't do that with batteries I don't think and have much more than what you can buy in China now. Just a big doll. So when I postulate these wild ass ideas it's only because I'm trying to think of a way around these battery prices. "Hope springs eternal." and it doesn't hurt to think about it.

>>24717 > If someone here knows how many ah is required to power a high torque 12 volts motor for say 6 hours that'd be great I have a few, very rough, estimates on power needed for lifting things and then extrapolated to all day in the actuator thread. Here's one, but ignore my hate of hydraulics, I may have changed my mind on that due to cost. Keep in mind I over estimated a bit because the processor alone will use substantial power any time it moves, talks or listens. >>12014 >>12140 I did some rough cost accounting here and came up with $10,846 for parts alone. It's too high to be profitable for individuals to buy. As has been said before I bet the break point is around $2,000-3,000 with $2.000 being far more desirable. So to make this really work you might need a parts cost of half that or less. Difficult. >>13408 One more that talks about forces needed and what that portends for the amount of power. >>13229 My cost are based on something that would follow simple directions like a dog. Train for your voice for a hour or so. Then have it do stuff like,"move over here", "pick that up", "follow me", "get me a beer". And the always popular,"go to the bedroom". I think if the above could be done for $2,000-3,000 they would sell fairly well. People would take into account the price. Sell upgrades, "orifices" .for maybe $200-300, (I don't think they should be built in for legal and propaganda reasons but be easy to add), and better software and hardware. I think it would at least have to move around without constantly falling over in built areas, like sidewalks, stairs, in houses and do a a little fetching. I think people would be happy with that as a start.

was looking at old crystal radios and it made me think the fact were saturated with so much emf waves might be useful in the future, these early radios didnt use an electricity, not directly at least, the radio waves themselves provided enough electricity to power the speaker so hypothetically you could be constantly charging the battery so long as theres emf waves like from your neighbors wifi, only thing is the power is so small so no idea how your going to push it into a battery that already has a charge pushing back

Though it's a bit antithetical to this thread, I have to ask: do we really need batteries right now? I've been mulling over the issue on my own time, and it seems that there really isn't any good solution to the mobile power problem at this time. But I don't think we need a solution, at least not straight away. Consider this: what would do with your wife's theoretical mobility if you had her immediately? Not five years from now, but right now. Realistically, there isn't a whole lot she can do outside the house. With our current level of technology, she won't be agile enough to walk on stairs, much less go on nature walks with you. With our current social situation, she really shouldn't be out in public. I believe that the limited benefit of batteries simply doesn't outweigh the cost or added engineering complexity right now. Plus, I can't imagine any of us are really going to stick with the V1 design of our wives forever. Parts break down and better parts release to market, there are many reasons to upgrade in the future. Thus, I think that the battery question should be shelved for the time being. The issue can be revisited in a few years when the technology gets a bit better (or cheaper, if nothing else). As for right now, a cable harness will do the job of delivering power for far cheaper. If you keep her brains in a server (which I will) you can add ethernet cables to the harness to facilitate cheaper, lower latency connections between her controllers and the server compared to WiFi.

This will help determine battery characteristics for a mobile robot. If she walks, triple the power required. https://community.robotshop.com/blog/show/drive-motor-sizing-tool

>>24725 >do we really need batteries right now? ...there isn't a whole lot she can do outside the house That's a good point. Could also see it as, use very limited battery power now with frequent recharge if not plugged in.

>>24722 >I think we can go much lower. Way lower. Vastly lower. I sure hope so Anon! In fact, I'm counting on it. :^) >>24725 You make some good points Anon. I'll give this some serious consideration. >>24732 Thanks!

Please don't take the threat of Li-Ion explosions/fires lightly, Anon. nitter.net/roller2426/status/1572892393791455232 nitter.net/JimNotBob/status/1456705971993169924 >=== -add 2nd link

News: Yuge Li ore deposit in Burgerland discovered, possibly the largest found on Earth so far. www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adh8183 nypost.com/2023/09/11/lithium-deposit-found-in-us-mcdermitt-caldera/ >=== -add 2nd link -minor edit

>>25325 Old news, but thanks for the reminder. IF I use Li-Ion at all, then in something like additional belts as external source. The right way to deal with such a fire seems to be wet sand, btw. Difficult in case of a bus, but it should work with a smaller device.

>>14332 >we typically don't use them as fuel because they're not as energy dense We don't use them cause they cost more per liter than gasoline/diesel and used oil is considered worthless waste; same applies for etanol.

So after years I am first person to point out LiFePO4 (lithium iron phosphate) batteries are safer than lithium ion? They dont heat up as much and are more difficult to explode. They also are better value for the cost in the long term because they do not lose capacity as fast. Part of the reason being they are able to operate lower voltages. But down side is they are heavier and less energy dense. Under development are NaFePO batteries, which likely would be cheaper if they ever come around and are supposed to perform better than current sodium ion batteries unless I had misread.

>>800 >40 days w/o food this is a really interesting phenomenon that i'm not sure will be able to be replicated in machines. my best guess is that the body does some incredible optimization after a while, so you spend energy a lot less than usual

>>30197 that and beer lol, its why monasteries have a reputation for brewing because of lent

>>30199 what does beer have to do with lent? do worshippers go on a beer fast or smth?

>>30200 the monks in medieval europe started it because it didnt count as food so it didnt break your fast, they then got the reputation because they were brewing the strongest beers out of necessity

>>30201 how do you mean "necessity"? does stronger beer help you stave off hunger?

>>30202 Bread was originally invented as a way to store beer. High enough concentration of grains and it becomes liquid bread.

>>30212 >a way to store beer today i found out...

>>30171 >LiFePO4 (lithium iron phosphate) batteries are safer than lithium ion I was mentioning LTOs instead, for years. Maybe LiFePO4 wasn't mentioned explicitly, but sites and channels where these batteries are talked about were certainly mentioned at some point. Or it was assumed people knew about it, or would find out when they'll need to. It might also a cause of going for the extremes, LiFePO4 is in the middle between lithium ion and LTOs. In my case, my argument is the number of loading cycles which speaks for LTOs, which is of course more important for a waifu body where the batteries are hard to access. Yes, maybe in a belt, boots or other external battery holders like mentioned in >>25328 lithium iron phosphate might be a better alternative.

This might be a moot point, but has anyone considered removing the computation from the machine body and treating it like a client-server relationship, where the body sends and recieves signals to the "brain"/server?

>>30249 I've been mentioning LiFePO4 for years. I even discussed charging them.

>>30252 I'll iterate; by having a low power client sending signals to a larger computer that is connected to power, there should not be too much of an issue for battery power; any room the computer would fit inside would be able to be used for space for a battery.

>>30253 I see. I was just meaning in this thread specifically I didn't see it mentioned. >>30249 Looking up LTO and it seems a lot more expensive and doesnt necessarily last as long as LiFeOP4. Why do you think you need direct access to the battery rather than some sort of charging port that can be covered? You only need access if you were hotswapping batteries or the battery is dead and wont charge. If you go hotswapping route charge time doesnt matter.

>>30252 >anyone considered removing the computation from the machine body and treating it like a client-server relationship Yes, this is one of the most important epiphany to have. That the compute doesn't necessarily need to happen in the body, it could be some external server. That said, it would be nice to do as much as possible internally. >>30253 Yeah, I didn't remember the details but wanted to communicate that it's not big news to us. Anyone looking into battery comparisons would've come across it, even if it wasn't mentioned, or even just not in this thread here. >>30261 I guess this thread here was just underused, it would be good to link all mentions of discussions about batteries into it one day. >Looking up LTO and it seems a lot more expensive and doesnt necessarily last as long as LiFeOP4 Last time I checked, it was the variant with the most charging cycles. But I don't follow all the new developments.

>>30252 >>30254 This even has it's own thread >>2956 (which it shouldn't have, a lot of threads should be merged one day)

Kiwi’s Basic Battery Guide! Watts are volts multiplied by amps. For example, a tiny computer using 5 volts at 2 amps is consuming 10 watts. Watt hours is how long a battery can supply power. A 50 watt hour battery would be able to power this tiny computer for 5 hours. In reality, it’s best to assume you’ll get less than this as your watts consumed will vary over time and things like voltage regulators and other aspects of her power system will drain the battery slightly faster than expected. Assuming 80% of the batteries power is usable by your waifu is a safe rule of thumb. Lithium LiIon Lithium Ion cells generally have 100-250 watt hours per kg of mass (higher density can be had, they’re uncommon and expensive). 250 to 700 watt hours per liter of volume. They can be expected to last between 300 to 1,000+ charge cycles before dropping to 80% of initial capacity. From there, expect the usable energy to drop significantly over time. Safe cell voltage ranges between 2.5 to 4.35. Voltage ranges between 3 to 4.1 will allow the cells to last longer. LiPo Lithium Polymer cells are designed to reach higher energy densities. They are closer to the 250 watt hours per kg and 700 watt hours per liter than LiIon batteries of the same cost. They will inflate and potentially explode if discharged below 2.5 volts or charged above 4.4 volts. They are tempting given their low cost and high energy density, they’re too explodey for me. These batteries need to be kept at normal temperatures or they go boom. Costs are reasonable. LiFePO4 Llithium Iron Phosphate cells typically have 90 to 150 watt hours per kg of mass. 200 to ~300 watt hours per liter of volume. Expect them to last ~3,000 charge cycles before dropping to 80% usable energy if you abuse them by over discharging them and charging them with poorly regulated voltage. They will last 4,000 to 10,000+ charge cycles before reaching 80% if you are careful. They tolerate over charging and complete discharging, but will lose capacity faster if done so. Safe voltage range is 2 to 3.6 volts. Only discharging to 2.8 volts will allow them to last hundreds to thousands more cycles. More tolerant to heat and cold, try to keep them at normal temperatures. Usually the lowest cost of the 3. LTO Lithium Titanate cells have an energy density of 30 to 100+ watt hours per kg. 100 to 150 watt hours per liter. They can last between 6,000 to 30,000+ charge cycles before reaching 80%. Safe voltage range of 1.8 to 2.8 volts. I’m unfamiliar with them, but they seem to have the potential to last for well over 30 years before they noticeably degrade in usable capacity. They are safe at extreme temperature ranges of -40c/f to 60c or 140f. The most expensive.

>>30276 i thought they only get swol when they heat up, its something to do with gases being produced which is why spotlights still use lead batteries because the amp required for a spotlight is too high to avoid heat from the draw the holy grail will always be pic related though but im not too into biology to figure out why its so hard to replicate in a machine

>>30276 Thanks, that's good for having an overview in this thread here. >Only discharging to 2.8 volts will allow them to last hundreds to thousands more cycles. More tolerant to heat and cold, try to keep them at normal temperatures. Usually the lowest cost of the 3. This here is the important part I didn't know about. Yes, this very likely makes LiFePO4 even more interesting than LTOs.

>>30252 Yup, that is how SPUD >>30161 works: raspberry pi for the avatar, server is a PC w/ RTX 2070 running an LLM and ai TTS. Data latency via wifi is neligible because the data transmitted per response can be measured in kb (server recieves about 20 bytes of text, then outputs a 120kb wav file), delay mostly comes from my graphics card being smol and taking a while. I'm using some premade batteries. They might be expensive (price has nearly doubled thanks to biden-omics) but sometimes they can be found in Harbor Freight's open box section on discount: folks buying the incorrect battery for their tools, I suspect. Comes with a built-in board to help with battery management and whatnot, but somehow I managed to brick one lol. Still not sure if I can fit it into SPUD's body though, might end up making some chonky megaman-esque boots for her to wear to hold the batteries and lower the center of gravity like the robosapien line does. >>30276 I had some LiPos start to inflate/heat up while charging them. Chucked 'em in a snowbank for a day to make sure they were cool then disposed of 'em.

>>30276 >>30278 I kept coming across videos of people buying LTOs and reporting their grade A battery was only giving performance of grade B so they got ripped off.

This has me thinking. Are soft pack batteries safer than hard pack? Since soft pack cant build up pressure so it cant explode so dangerously if punctured or something. >>30285 > I had some LiPos start to inflate/heat up while charging them. Chucked 'em in a snowbank for a day to make sure they were cool then disposed of 'em. Considering lithium is highly reactive to water that wasn't exactly the best move. In future you need a class D powder extinguisher in case of lithium fires. Though in a pinch you maybe could use a box of sodium bicarbonate sprinkled on it.

>>30289 I forgot to mention a few details like I did seal it in a bag first and the snowbank was in the middle of a field :D Talking with a fellow who did beetleweights battlebots that did use lithium batteries he needed contingency plans for insurance reasons. His plan (which he had to implement once) was putting the beastie in a sturdy metal box until the lithium burned itself out. And that is why I'm sticking with Lead-acid for my non-robowafiu projects. Those break the worst you have is an acid spill (which I've had to deal with before).

>>30290 yeah your friend has the right approach, found out these things are unstoppable bombs, all the oxygen is already there in the uh lithium oxide, once its hot enough to free the oxygen you get a runaway reaction of more heat leading to more oxidation leading to more heat and more oxygen and so on and so forth, all you can do is cover it and wait it out because its not stopping

>>30289 >class D powder extinguisher I would really like to never use that in a domestic place. I hope the carbon dioxide ones are good enough. That said,... >>30295 >all you can do is cover it and wait it out because its not stopping Maybe I'm not well informed yet, but I thought wet sand was the best way to go.

>>30299 CO2 extinguishers are for class B and C fires. Class C being electrical fires but I think that's more like fire from the arcing electricity or flaming cables or something. Class D fires are metal fires including lithium though oddly some extinguishers do not even mention lithium. I am seeing some mixed information online some suggesting certain class C extinguishers might work but I think that's possibly wrong since lithium is self oxidizing if I recall right. Probably best to go physically to a fire station and chat with them for ideas if you have trouble finding info from reliable sources. One thing you can do is avoid full charges and full discharges which will extend the battery life and keep it from getting too hot when charging. Yet then again I actually did find out you can actually buy sodium ion cells even now. Probably not ideal for charge cycles but for testing as long as the voltage is as much as you need they might do fine. They can still explode if punctured or something but they dont burst into flames so it might be useful for just testing maybe?

>>30299 any covering will do, just anything to isolate it from the surroundings, its basically thermite at that point

>>30285 > Comes with a built-in board to help with battery management and whatnot, but somehow I managed to brick one Do you still have it? I have a hoverboard battery that was reading 1 volt, and was able to "restore" it by the method in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ru28-1yMKE In my case the BMS board was glitched, and though I had the battery on the charger for several days (apparently not charging) the battery read 11 volts, when it was actually fully charged. By doing the short circuit- with a pair of plastic handled scissors- the battery immediately "revived" (the BMS reset) and now works properly.

>>30328 Ive done the short circuit thing on some lithium batteries before. They get extremely hot very quickly and risk exploding into flames. Something to do with the heat breaking up crystals formed in them or something if i recall right. It of course causes damage to the battery but yeah it can work.

>>30328 >Do you still have it? Of course, that little shit was expensive. One of these days I'm going to be dissecting it and replacing/recharging the cells individually.

>>30308 Good news on the battery fire front or lack there of. I was watching some electric sail boat stuff, and they now have solid state batteries. You can drive a nail through them and they won't catch on fire. They have super long life of 12,000 cycles and comparative energy density. I've read before that they can be higher. @7:00 EXCLUSIVE_ Secrets Shared by Marine Battery Manufacturers _ Step 381 They have tested it so it will be product soon. This won't help right away but the fact that they have production tested cells means not so very long they will have more of them. The advantages in lifetime and safety will likely drive the market to them.

>>30348 Wouldnt the right battery size be more like something for an ebike, moped or motorcycle?

>>30348 Yes, solid state batteries are being talked about for quite some time, and they might become very interesting, but it needs to be a real product and available in the right size made for hobbyists and robots in particular. >>30350 >something for an ebike, moped or motorcycle Still too big. At least the later two.

>>30356 its been a thing since forever its just not used as a battery most of the time because its no where near as effective as a chemical battery, dont think there will ever be anything better than liion